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> I agree that some vegans also make outlandish claims but I think it's taking it too far to say that this is "generally where the backlash starts", because tha

by Alupis 5y ago

> I agree that some vegans also make outlandish claims but I think it's taking it too far to say that this is "generally where the backlash starts", because that implies that it's our fault / we caused it. There's the old vegan joke for a reason: How do you know someone is a vegan? They'll tell you all about it... I think vegans get a bad rep because too often they feel the need to convert others to veganism too. Vegans aren't alone here, super devote religious people do this too, the guy in your office that just got into standing desks does it too, etc... When people make a choice they believe is the one true way to do something, it's difficult to see others not join in - after all, you feel you've made the choice because it's healthy/will save your life/save the planet/whatever, how could you just watch others harm themselves? Just live and let live... other people don't and shouldn't care if you choose to be a vegan or not. Not targeting you in particular... just general observations. The "as a vegan..." line is about as tired as the "as a libertarian I believe X..." line. Nobody cares what you are or believe.

boston_clone 5y ago
> Just live and let live. ...except for animals, right? This is a prime example of the dissonance that comes from having carnism as a dominant ideology for dietary preference.
- Alupis 5y ago
  Eating what biology intended you to eat is not an ideology. Making a conscious decision to go against biology and select a different dietary preference is indeed an ideology (unless there is a real medical reason you cannot eat something, such as allergies).
  - boston_clone 5y ago
    There is nothing about eating fruits, vegetables, grains, and legumes that goes against our biology. The American Dietetics Association recognizes a vegetarian diet as appropriate for all stages of life [0]. Meat is not a requirement to live a healthy life, and can - in some cases and excess - detriment overall health. Additionally, current animal agricultural practices are harmful to the environment. 0. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/
    - Alupis 5y ago
      That's quite a straw man you've weaved there. First, nobody said anything about eating only meat as a diet. I'd wager zero people do that - you would quickly develop vitamin deficiencies and ultimately fall ill and die. Secondly, you've moved the goal posts to vegetarianism, which is not veganism. Third, just because a vegetarian diet can be sustainable (in the sense you won't fall ill) doesn't mean it's the natural diet for a human. It's not... Your teeth and many other parts of your human body tell us differently. Fourth, there are several cultures on this planet that strongly favor vegetarianism, but none are strictly vegan and few are strictly vegetarian. As already pointed out, vegans often have to take supplements to remain healthy. That's biology telling you that diet isn't natural. Lastly, deciding to be a vegan because you believe current agriculture practices are harmful to the environment is a choice based off your beliefs and therefore is an ideology. That was the original assertion.
      - boston_clone 5y ago
        You seem to be conflating carnism for the carnivore diet. Info on what carnism is can be found here [0]. There's a lot of good stuff in that article, I think! Unfortunately, there are people who are indulging in a pure carnivore diet. You're right that it's patently unhealthy, and frankly it's a little weird. Veganism is a subset of vegetarianism. I'm trying to be flexible with my position to allow for good discussion - being either vegetarian or vegan is typically healthier and objectively better for the environment [4]. Recognizing that humans are omnivores also means that by definition we can sustain ourselves solely by plant or animal matter [1]. Your statement of "Making a conscious decision to go against biology [...]" is plainly inaccurate, as we are quite capable of living healthy lives without meat. There is plenty of evidence to support the fact that animal agriculture is harmful to the environment [2][3]. In fact, it is the second largest contributor of green house gasses. I get the sense that there is some frustration coming through in your thoughts. Please keep in mind this is exactly how cognitive dissonance expresses itself. Take a breath, check out some of the citations below, and try to think about this data with an objective approach. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnism 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnivore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnivore 2. https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/full/10.1289/ehp.11034 https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/full/10.1289/ehp.11034 3. https://climatenexus.org/climate-issues/food/animal-agricultures-impact-on-climate-change/ https://climatenexus.org/climate-issues/food/animal-agricult... 4. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/
kevinh 5y ago
If you're hanging out with someone, it's almost impossible for it not to come up that you're vegan, since a large amount of places to eat have no vegan-friendly foods. You either have to bring up that you can't eat somewhere (since it has nothing you can eat) or not eat at all (prompting questions about that).
- Alupis 5y ago
  Good point. I guess the only time someone should care about your dietary preference is if you're having a dinner party or going out to eat. That's appropriate use of the "I'm a vegan" line... Just don't go over the top and tell people they're bad for eating a hamburger or inject your veganism into otherwise irrelevant conversation.

by Alupis 5y ago

boston_clone 5y ago

> Just live and let live. ...except for animals, right? This is a prime example of the dissonance that comes from having carnism as a dominant ideology for dietary preference.

Alupis 5y ago
Eating what biology intended you to eat is not an ideology. Making a conscious decision to go against biology and select a different dietary preference is indeed an ideology (unless there is a real medical reason you cannot eat something, such as allergies).
- boston_clone 5y ago
  There is nothing about eating fruits, vegetables, grains, and legumes that goes against our biology. The American Dietetics Association recognizes a vegetarian diet as appropriate for all stages of life [0]. Meat is not a requirement to live a healthy life, and can - in some cases and excess - detriment overall health. Additionally, current animal agricultural practices are harmful to the environment. 0. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/
  - Alupis 5y ago
    That's quite a straw man you've weaved there. First, nobody said anything about eating only meat as a diet. I'd wager zero people do that - you would quickly develop vitamin deficiencies and ultimately fall ill and die. Secondly, you've moved the goal posts to vegetarianism, which is not veganism. Third, just because a vegetarian diet can be sustainable (in the sense you won't fall ill) doesn't mean it's the natural diet for a human. It's not... Your teeth and many other parts of your human body tell us differently. Fourth, there are several cultures on this planet that strongly favor vegetarianism, but none are strictly vegan and few are strictly vegetarian. As already pointed out, vegans often have to take supplements to remain healthy. That's biology telling you that diet isn't natural. Lastly, deciding to be a vegan because you believe current agriculture practices are harmful to the environment is a choice based off your beliefs and therefore is an ideology. That was the original assertion.
    - boston_clone 5y ago
      You seem to be conflating carnism for the carnivore diet. Info on what carnism is can be found here [0]. There's a lot of good stuff in that article, I think! Unfortunately, there are people who are indulging in a pure carnivore diet. You're right that it's patently unhealthy, and frankly it's a little weird. Veganism is a subset of vegetarianism. I'm trying to be flexible with my position to allow for good discussion - being either vegetarian or vegan is typically healthier and objectively better for the environment [4]. Recognizing that humans are omnivores also means that by definition we can sustain ourselves solely by plant or animal matter [1]. Your statement of "Making a conscious decision to go against biology [...]" is plainly inaccurate, as we are quite capable of living healthy lives without meat. There is plenty of evidence to support the fact that animal agriculture is harmful to the environment [2][3]. In fact, it is the second largest contributor of green house gasses. I get the sense that there is some frustration coming through in your thoughts. Please keep in mind this is exactly how cognitive dissonance expresses itself. Take a breath, check out some of the citations below, and try to think about this data with an objective approach. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnism 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnivore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnivore 2. https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/full/10.1289/ehp.11034 https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/full/10.1289/ehp.11034 3. https://climatenexus.org/climate-issues/food/animal-agricultures-impact-on-climate-change/ https://climatenexus.org/climate-issues/food/animal-agricult... 4. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19562864/

kevinh 5y ago

If you're hanging out with someone, it's almost impossible for it not to come up that you're vegan, since a large amount of places to eat have no vegan-friendly foods. You either have to bring up that you can't eat somewhere (since it has nothing you can eat) or not eat at all (prompting questions about that).

Alupis 5y ago
Good point. I guess the only time someone should care about your dietary preference is if you're having a dinner party or going out to eat. That's appropriate use of the "I'm a vegan" line... Just don't go over the top and tell people they're bad for eating a hamburger or inject your veganism into otherwise irrelevant conversation.