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Scientific consensus didn't change on masks. It was known very early that they best prevent the spread of Covid. When Western governments lied to get around su

by leppr 5y ago

Scientific consensus didn't change on masks. It was known very early that they best prevent the spread of Covid. When Western governments lied to get around supply issues, while distracting people with quasi-religious rituals around hand hygiene, they not only caused preventable deaths among populations at risk, they planted the seed for long term education and trust issues. More than a year later westerners still have terrible understanding of how the virus spreads, terrible mask education, AND mistrust of health authorities. The antidote to misinformation isn't more misinformation, it's truth.

jacquesm 5y ago
To this day, Jaap van Dissel, the head of the RIVM maintains that masks do not work.
- NikolaeVarius 5y ago
  https://www.newsweek.com/netherlands-mask-policy-1522917 https://www.newsweek.com/netherlands-mask-policy-1522917 I remember this guy. The specific claim was that he does not believe that masks will prevent new infections due to people not socially distancing and wearing them incorrectly, NOT that masks are ineffective. He concedes that the evidence suggests masks themselves work. I've seen this guy get cited in anti-vaxx circles, using extremely simplified claims. Of course when I bring up the fact that he advocates for social distancing, anti-vaxxers get angry at me.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Yes, there is some nuance there now, but it wasn't always so. That's his way of very slowly walking back his claims, a bit of a no true Scotsman, but now 'no true mask'. "masks don't work" -> "ordinary masks don't work" -> "ordinary masks don't work because people won't take other precautions when they wear masks" and so on. The damage was already done by the time he started with the qualifications and to this day 100's of thousands, if not millions of people will quote the head of the RIVM (correctly or not) to support their anti-mask (often coupled with anti-vaxx) stance. And social distancing + masks = better than social distancing without. Even Fauci called him to task about this, his response was that 'he would study their claims' (their claim: that masks do work). https://nos.nl/artikel/2350709-van-dissel-blijft-erbij-gewone-mondkapjes-hebben-weinig-effect https://nos.nl/artikel/2350709-van-dissel-blijft-erbij-gewon... When people like Jaap van Dissel cross the official line published by the country it immediately erodes the platform that we all depend on to get through this. From someone in his position one would assume a basic familiarity with the difference between official policy and scientific fact and when it is appropriate to take which viewpoint.
    - fivea 5y ago
      > Yes, there is some nuance there now, (...) That does not seem to be true. Wikipedia's article on Jaap van Dissel[1] links to a Reuters news article from September 2020[2] where van Dissel is referred to have made the following claim: > The head of infectious diseases at the Netherlands’ National Institute for Public Health (RIVM), Jaap van Dissel, has argued there is no scientific proof of cloth masks’ effectiveness, and that they might do more harm than good by giving users a false sense of security. Please note that the criticism refers to cloth mask (not surgical), whose effectiveness has been since then reported to be lower than 40%. Also, the thesis is that relying on an ineffective protection measure does more harm than good as this potentiates the spread of the disease. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaap_van_Dissel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaap_van_Dissel [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-netherlands-masks/record-dutch-covid-19-cases-prompt-u-turn-on-face-masks-idINKBN26L2T3 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-nether...
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        Van Dissel has made quite a few statements prior to September 2020. https://www.trouw.nl/buitenland/mondkapjes-hebben-geen-zin-zegt-het-rivm-maar-landen-om-ons-heen-denken-daar-anders-over~bad5c7e9/ https://www.trouw.nl/buitenland/mondkapjes-hebben-geen-zin-z... "‘Mondkapjes opdoen heeft geen enkele zin’" "putting on a mask is without any sense" That's exactly what I meant when I wrote that over time he has moved his position. First it was all masks, then cloth masks, then they didn't work because then other measures wouldn't work etc. But he never came out to say he simply got it wrong.
        fivea 5y ago
        > That's exactly what I meant when I wrote that over time he has moved his position. Isn't your source citing the WHO's advisory from early 2020 on how face masks were counterproductive as they convey a false sense of security and thus contribute to violate critical measures such as social distancing and washing hands? https://finance.yahoo.com/news/who-director-warns-masks-can-create-false-sense-of-security-195830188.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/who-director-warns-masks-can-... From the article: > “Masks can also create a false sense of security, leading people to neglect measures like hand hygiene and physical distancing,” Adhanom said. “I cannot say this enough: Masks will not protect you alone from COVID-19.” This was a quote from a WHO representative, made two months after your source was published.
fivea 5y ago
> When Western governments lied to get around supply issues (...) I don't know what you interpreted as a lie. What I saw was two updates that sparked advisories to curtail surgical mask runs: * the initial WHO position from between late 2019 to early 2020 on the risk of COVID spread, back when COVID was still the Wuhan epidemic and little was known about it, where they quoted Chinese health officials on how the risk of airborne transmission was deemed low. Therefore, based on those observations, surgical masks and gloves were deemed unnecessary. * The updated WHO position around early 2020 after airborne transmissions started to be reported and corroborated by multiple sources which caused a supply crunch of surgical masks and gloves which were putting frontline workers in risk. * a call to the widespread adoption of masks from around mid 2020, whether surgical masks or cloth, when their availability started to not be put into question. Updating advisories based on new data on a developing problem might be seen as flipfloping in politics, but it's not lying or a bad thing.

by leppr 5y ago

jacquesm 5y ago

To this day, Jaap van Dissel, the head of the RIVM maintains that masks do not work.

NikolaeVarius 5y ago
https://www.newsweek.com/netherlands-mask-policy-1522917 https://www.newsweek.com/netherlands-mask-policy-1522917 I remember this guy. The specific claim was that he does not believe that masks will prevent new infections due to people not socially distancing and wearing them incorrectly, NOT that masks are ineffective. He concedes that the evidence suggests masks themselves work. I've seen this guy get cited in anti-vaxx circles, using extremely simplified claims. Of course when I bring up the fact that he advocates for social distancing, anti-vaxxers get angry at me.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Yes, there is some nuance there now, but it wasn't always so. That's his way of very slowly walking back his claims, a bit of a no true Scotsman, but now 'no true mask'. "masks don't work" -> "ordinary masks don't work" -> "ordinary masks don't work because people won't take other precautions when they wear masks" and so on. The damage was already done by the time he started with the qualifications and to this day 100's of thousands, if not millions of people will quote the head of the RIVM (correctly or not) to support their anti-mask (often coupled with anti-vaxx) stance. And social distancing + masks = better than social distancing without. Even Fauci called him to task about this, his response was that 'he would study their claims' (their claim: that masks do work). https://nos.nl/artikel/2350709-van-dissel-blijft-erbij-gewone-mondkapjes-hebben-weinig-effect https://nos.nl/artikel/2350709-van-dissel-blijft-erbij-gewon... When people like Jaap van Dissel cross the official line published by the country it immediately erodes the platform that we all depend on to get through this. From someone in his position one would assume a basic familiarity with the difference between official policy and scientific fact and when it is appropriate to take which viewpoint.
  - fivea 5y ago
    > Yes, there is some nuance there now, (...) That does not seem to be true. Wikipedia's article on Jaap van Dissel[1] links to a Reuters news article from September 2020[2] where van Dissel is referred to have made the following claim: > The head of infectious diseases at the Netherlands’ National Institute for Public Health (RIVM), Jaap van Dissel, has argued there is no scientific proof of cloth masks’ effectiveness, and that they might do more harm than good by giving users a false sense of security. Please note that the criticism refers to cloth mask (not surgical), whose effectiveness has been since then reported to be lower than 40%. Also, the thesis is that relying on an ineffective protection measure does more harm than good as this potentiates the spread of the disease. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaap_van_Dissel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaap_van_Dissel [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-netherlands-masks/record-dutch-covid-19-cases-prompt-u-turn-on-face-masks-idINKBN26L2T3 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-nether...
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Van Dissel has made quite a few statements prior to September 2020. https://www.trouw.nl/buitenland/mondkapjes-hebben-geen-zin-zegt-het-rivm-maar-landen-om-ons-heen-denken-daar-anders-over~bad5c7e9/ https://www.trouw.nl/buitenland/mondkapjes-hebben-geen-zin-z... "‘Mondkapjes opdoen heeft geen enkele zin’" "putting on a mask is without any sense" That's exactly what I meant when I wrote that over time he has moved his position. First it was all masks, then cloth masks, then they didn't work because then other measures wouldn't work etc. But he never came out to say he simply got it wrong.
      - fivea 5y ago
        > That's exactly what I meant when I wrote that over time he has moved his position. Isn't your source citing the WHO's advisory from early 2020 on how face masks were counterproductive as they convey a false sense of security and thus contribute to violate critical measures such as social distancing and washing hands? https://finance.yahoo.com/news/who-director-warns-masks-can-create-false-sense-of-security-195830188.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/who-director-warns-masks-can-... From the article: > “Masks can also create a false sense of security, leading people to neglect measures like hand hygiene and physical distancing,” Adhanom said. “I cannot say this enough: Masks will not protect you alone from COVID-19.” This was a quote from a WHO representative, made two months after your source was published.

fivea 5y ago

> When Western governments lied to get around supply issues (...) I don't know what you interpreted as a lie. What I saw was two updates that sparked advisories to curtail surgical mask runs: * the initial WHO position from between late 2019 to early 2020 on the risk of COVID spread, back when COVID was still the Wuhan epidemic and little was known about it, where they quoted Chinese health officials on how the risk of airborne transmission was deemed low. Therefore, based on those observations, surgical masks and gloves were deemed unnecessary. * The updated WHO position around early 2020 after airborne transmissions started to be reported and corroborated by multiple sources which caused a supply crunch of surgical masks and gloves which were putting frontline workers in risk. * a call to the widespread adoption of masks from around mid 2020, whether surgical masks or cloth, when their availability started to not be put into question. Updating advisories based on new data on a developing problem might be seen as flipfloping in politics, but it's not lying or a bad thing.