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Ask HN: Ridiculous job interview. What do I do?
Who: Series B startup with ~$100 million in funding, me open-source developer
What: engineering manager writes me e-mail that goes like: “we found your open-source project and want to offer you a job”
In a meeting they explain how they were interested in using my open-source project and want to hire me so i could carry out a similar work for them
Then they go on and explain i’d have to do 4 more meetings 1-2 hours each, including a leetcode-style tech interview
In my head i’m thinking: “If their leetcode-engineers are that good why do they have rely on my open-source?”
What would you do in this situation?
Would you jump through the hoops in hope of getting relevant work?
- rossdavidh 5y agoIt's just one negative on the scales, so it depends on what there is to put on the positive side of the scale. On the other hand, I have to admit that in my own experience, the longer and more convoluted the interview process the worse the job experience. But it's not an iron law.
- _robbywashere 5y agoDon’t listen to all the middle managers on here telling you you should jump through hoops. This interaction now will set the precedence for the rest of your working relationship. I’d bring it up for a discussion with them.
- busyuser 5y agoCool, thanks mate! Do you have an idea how i can bring it up in a polite manner?
- x0x0 5y agoI personally always favor directness. That said, your post is pretty inconclusive: there's a big difference between 4x1 hour interviews and 4x2 hour interviews. You do realize that working there would probably give them broad rights over your open source project, right? Standard employee contracts assign work that you do on their hardware, during their time, or that are directly related to their business. You certainly tick box 3. You also aren't clear if you want the job. If you want it, you're probably going to have to do some hoop jumping. If you don't, then no hoop jumping required. Anyway: Hey, thanks for reaching out and it was a pleasure meeting you over zoom. It certainly sounds like [X] has some interesting work, and I'd obviously love to see my project deployed. Given my experience in the area, I can definitely provide [YY]. However, to be direct: while I'd love to check culture fit, your proposed use of my project has validated my ability to write software. I'm not interested in a full interview cycle including code tests. If you're interested in proceeding, I'm happy to spend up to two hours meeting with your team. Alternatively, perhaps you would rather engage in a consulting relationship where I retain ownership over my project? Cheers.
- _robbywashere 5y agoIf you NEED the job and the leetcode quiz/exam/hoop-jumping is a HARD REQUIREMENT, then you may not have a choice. Tell them it seems a bit weird to run you through the gauntlet after specifically calling out your open sourced code, and maybe suggest an interview that will be more telling on how well you’ll be working together versus deciding “if you can code” (your project should already indicate that?) If they’re bothered seemingly or obviously and cannot take the feedback lightly or seriously then maybe that’s a good indication to consider other opportunities.
- Hansi 5y agoAs a middle manager I can confirm, I have a certain set of standard interview processes I apply but if the candidate is warranted to ask for an alternative approach to assess their skills in condensed time I can accommodate those situations too. Simply asking directly is most likely the best approach, suggesting a route is likely fastest to get an answer e.g. instead of 4x1hr can we do 1x1.5-2hr and reference your code for them to measure your skills overall.
- 908B64B197 5y ago> Then they go on and explain i’d have to do 4 more meetings 1-2 hours each, including a leetcode-style tech interview. In my head i’m thinking: “If their leetcode-engineers are that good why do they have rely on my open-source?” Honestly leetcode is fraud detection at this point. I've seen "engineers" with good looking resumes who couldn't FizzBuzz. And a way to filter out huge red-flag (can't work with someone else).
- leetcrew 5y agoI don't think it's very good for that. plenty of people that could trivially pass fizzbuzz would struggle to recognize whether dfs or dp is the best approach to some problem within ten minutes. as I candidate I actually love leetcode problems. it's a clear evaluation target that I can prepare for as much as I want in my own time. if I can solve most lc mediums in thirty minutes, I can be confident I'll get at least one offer with good compensation. I'm less clear on the value lc provides to the employer. the hardest problems actual engineers face are nailing down requirements and figuring out who/what to consult to unblock themselves. by the time you sit down to code a solution to a well-defined problem, most of the work is already done. to put it in joel spolsky terms, lc tests for "smart", but doesn't provide any signal for "gets stuff done".
- 908B64B197 5y ago> would struggle to recognize whether dfs or dp is the best approach to some problem within ten minutes. But they can write a solution even if it's not the most optimal one? And they know and can tell you multiple ways of solving a problem and discuss the tradeoffs? That's good enough for me. > the hardest problems actual engineers face are nailing down requirements and figuring out who/what to consult to unblock themselves. by the time you sit down to code a solution to a well-defined problem, most of the work is already done. to put it in joel spolsky terms, lc tests for "smart", but doesn't provide any signal for "gets stuff done". It's hard to evaluate that in an hour, and I'm not certain there's a correct way of doing it. A college degree from a good school where students are assigned non-trivial capstone projects would probably be a good predictor.
- ushakov 5y agoreminds me of the homebrew situation > Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but you can’t invert a binary tree on a whiteboard so fuck off. https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768 https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768
- shaftway 5y agoMore info: https://qr.ae/pGmK8A https://qr.ae/pGmK8A My personal favorite quote from it: > I am often a dick, I am often difficult, I often don’t know computer science, but. BUT. I make really good things, maybe they aren't perfect, but people really like them. Surely, surely Google could have used that.
- aynyc 5y agoI get his frustration, but why would I want to work with someone who openly admit that he's a dick and proud of it? Linus is an example, as great as he is, why would I work with/for him unless I'm desperately need him?
- spoils19 5y agoI don't recall him saying he's proud that he's a dick. I read that quote as that he's introspective enough to recognize it.
- jgwil2 5y agoI agree. If I'm honest his writing style makes him seem like he has a somewhat abrasive personality and I do wonder if that might be a factor as well.
- antisthenes 5y agoBecause you can exploit them to write great things without really giving them a platform for being a dick. A good manager will isolate an asshole from the rest of the team, but still capture the value they produce.
- aerojoe23 5y ago
- meheleventyone 5y agoEven four more 1-2 hours interviews is asking a lot without the tech hazing. If I had to guess they have a ridiculous process and someone else who only had the power to bump you through to consideration found your open source work. At the end of the day though it depends on how much you need the work.
- sharmin123 5y agoSnapchat Safety Tips: Secure Snapchat Account: https://www.hackerslist.co/snapchat-safety-tips-secure-snapchat-account/ https://www.hackerslist.co/snapchat-safety-tips-secure-snapc...
- PaulHoule 5y agoYeah, but I'm weird. I'm almost social phobic in real life but I learned how to destroy job interviews.
- busyuser 5y agoShare the secret with me?
- PaulHoule 5y agoI think most people make stupid mistakes in job interviews and thus interview below their level. If you fix that you practically interview way above your level. I bought the course this guy was selling 15 years ago https://job-interview-answers.com/ https://job-interview-answers.com/ which changed my viewpoint. Also I am good at leetcode questions and highly educated and experienced. Even when I don't know the answer I manage to salvage the situation anyway (They asked me what "regularization" was in a data science interview, I had no idea, they told me, and then I told them all the ways I had done regularization.) I say "there is no question in a data science interview that can't be answered by (1) look it up in the hashtable or (2) look it up in the literature." I can make that work for me, but I am not sure how to make it work for you. Now if I could only pick up girls as well as I do job interviews...
- busyuser 5y agoGreat, will check the course out I don't think competing in answering questions anybody can learn is my skill or is a great skill to have. I'm a creative guy! Wish you much luck with girls!
- PaulHoule 5y agoSome subjects (medicine) are all about memorization. Leetcode is more like solving math problems; bad students are bad in a few different ways, a certain kind of bad student thinks it is about memorization -- maybe that is why they are bad. It is a complex set of skills, aptitudes and knowledge to do that kind of programming. I think it partially relates to real work. Personally I did all the Python problems in HackerRank and I felt like it was a fun challenge where I learned a lot even though I was already experienced in Python. Doing that kind of problem in a job interview is not the same as doing them online. You could be good at doing them online but choke at the whiteboard because of social pressure. You could also be bad at doing them online but lean on the other people heavily and still make a good impression. (e.g. you can really make people think you are smart by asking great questions.) Confidence and bluster can get you a long way in those situations and you also can run into situations where the people interviewing you are just totally wrong about the problem and that involves both confidence and tact. The primary route is "when in Rome do as the Romans do" so I play along rather than fight or fly. Maybe it is my bias because I'm good at that kind of thing (got a Physics PhD.)
- giantg2 5y agoIf you really want the job you can go through it. I would ask them about the LeetCode interview. They really shouldn't need it - they approached you based on your open source code... that speaks for itself.
- _ah 5y agoAsk for the comp range they're offering. If the money is fantastic then consider jumping through the silly hoops. If it's just average then tell them that your open source project is proof of your technical abilities, you're happy to do culture / leadership conversations and answer code-review style questions about the technical design of your projects, but that otherwise you're not interested in passing an arbitrary leetcode bar.
- setgree 5y agoI thought this as well. You probably have some number in mind where you'd walk over coals to get it, right? This is like that, except the barriers are tedious to endure rather than physically painful. OTOH, if you get an offer and you feel queasy about things, you can have the all-too-rare-in-life privilege of asking impolite questions and maybe getting a real response, e.g., "The way you made me jump through all these hoops makes me think that the company culture might be rigid and dysfunctional. Is it?" And then see what happens!
- busyuser 5y agoNice idea. I'm thinking of offering to complete a take-home project or go through some of my open-source work line-by-line BUT, i have no idea if they're willing to agree or would just drop me after that altogether
- t-writescode 5y agoSome company's interview pipelines are aggressively documented and standardized. The goal is that everyone gets at the level they're supposed to, backed with evidence for why that decision is made. If you're completely breaking the process, it may harm that, leaving you either: * as a Senior / Principal that isn't actually ready for that kind of work in their specific area and their specific software type * as a level 1 or 2 that absolutely could be a Senior / Principal and now you're going to have to crawl through their ranks slowly.
- bsg75 5y agoDo you need or really want the job? If so, this may be their standard interview practice (although a bit drawn out) and have to accept it. If the gig is more of a "nice to have" you could respond to them that your portfolio is the repository, and that given their interest in you, meetings to establish personality fit for a cohesive team are great, but a coding interview seems unnecessary - in professional wording. Make the process work in both directions. I believe excessive interview practices are a red flag. It can show a lack of understanding by the company of what they need, or worse a desire to "see how candidates do under pressure" (i.e. hazing) which can be indicative of a toxic environment.
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago> I believe excessive interview practices are a red flag I agree that excessive interviews are a warning sign, but that needs to be kept in perspective. 3-4 one hour interviews is almost standard practice in many locations and tech sectors. Even 4x2 hour interviews is still only the equivalent of a single workday. Interviews go both ways and you want to use this time to get a feel for the company and your potential teammates. Treat it as a bidirectional exercise. Having too short of an interview process can also be a red flag. Skipping the interview process is a common trick at “meat grinder” companies that hire a lot of people at once, crush them with unrealistic demands, and then only keep the few people who are willing to put up with it. When they’re hiring en masse and only care about code quantity and not quality, skipping the tech interview is a way to streamline the process.
- dragonwriter 5y ago> I agree that excessive interviews are a warning sign, but that needs to be kept in perspective. 3-4 one hour interviews is almost standard practice in many locations and tech sectors. For someone who comes to the company cold or in response to an advertised opening, sure. If the firm is reaching out to a prospect, its not a random unknown applicant, and the filtering should be substantially less. If its not, its a sign of managerial dysfunction at the firm, which should be a negative signal to the prospect.
- TigeriusKirk 5y agoIf you invite me in based on my work, I'm not jumping through hoops to prove myself to you.
- busyuser 5y agoAll my commercial activities relevant to that open-source project i have done via handshakes, no interviews
- s17n 5y agoSeems like a pretty standard interview panel to me - if you want the job do it, otherwise don't?
- kordlessagain 5y agoConsider this a nice bit of validation of your work and maybe use it to renew your efforts in doing your own thing. The world needs more independent thinkers, but working for someone else might also be your jam.
- busyuser 5y agoYes, i'm thinking about it right now But i'm certain that i will keep doing open-source, regardless if i get hired or spin it off into a startup myself
- busyuser 5y agoIn addition to that post: 1) They said they only "hire the best" (i'm certainly great, but not the best) 2) They bragged about how they have "more money they could ever spend" 3) They expect me to compromise my side projects and consulting activities, because "Series B startups are a whole different type of experience"
- meheleventyone 5y agoRun away! Edit: For clarity these to me mark them out as being extremely naive about their own value.
- busyuser 5y agoI have this feeling that they're spoiled because of all the money they've got Good thing is, i don't care about money as much as they do!
- meheleventyone 5y agoThe other thing to do is switch the script and offer them consultancy that suits you. I doubt from your description they’d take the offer but it sounds way more like it’d fit you.
- guenthert 5y ago1) They all say that. You can safely ignore that. Guys like Fabrice Bellard found their own company and aren't for hire. 2) That should give you an idea what to negotiate in terms of compensation. 3) Well, in my experience, start-ups tend to be more intense than enterprise jobs. There are trade-offs. Prioritizing work over hobbies might be one of them. Your call.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- pavlov 5y agoThis would be a red flag to me. It sounds like they’re building a culture of exclusivity and status rather than accomplishment. For what it’s worth, I recently joined a startup (after leaving a FAANG) that just raised a Series B, and nobody at work talks like that.
- guenthert 5y agoIf it were a large enterprise who's idea of innovation is to do whatever Facebook does, then yeah, you can't change their processes and will have to jump through the hoops to get the job. It's also a hint of how work at that corporation will be later on. Otoh, at a start-up, I surely would expect people working there being able to think for themselves and given that they like your code, a leetcode interview does indeed seem absurd.
- lhorie 5y agoBeen in a very similar situation. They found me (probably by crawling Github/LinkedIn), reached out to me saying they had a role that was similar to the stuff I was doing in open source (which was true), but the interview process was to go through the standardized pipeline (4 1-hour sessions is pretty standard among big tech cos). I went with it because total comp was quite a bit more attractive than what I was making at the time and opened a path for further income growth for not just me but my wife as well. I've recently entertained an invitation from a FANG recruiter just to see what they had to offer, and they agreed to skip the screener round and told me "I was already approved for an offer, from HR's end" assuming the second interview round yields good results (this was for staff eng level, if it matters). My perspective on this: a lot of recruiters and tech leads use automation to find prospective candidates and they tell all of them they found their OSS projects interesting etc, but don't actually understand how that project translates in terms of coding ability on an individual basis (i.e. they haven't actually reviewed code to determine whether e.g. you're actually able to think algorithmically or are just gluing libraries together). That's sort of where the leetcode stuff is supposed to come in: by pushing you through the standardized funnel, they can get a better gauge for how you stack against other candidates. N.B: Whether that provides a good indicator of job performance at all in the first place is a can of worms of its own, IMHO. My advice: weigh in compensation, career growth and job alignment to decide whether this opportunity is for you. If so, treat the leetcode stuff as a formality: if you have the chops, you should be able to pass with flying colors. The most important question to ask yourself is "what's in it for me?"
- broAhmed 5y agoHey OP, to go off what lhorie said: 1. Does the company actually know what your open source project does and how they want to fit into the company's product? 2. Agree with lhorie that an interview consisting of 4-5 sessions of 1-hour each is typical in big tech companies based on my experience. Keep in mind they're not interviewing you for your technical chops alone which your open source work has already proven; they're looking at whether you'd fit in socially (which is pretty easy in my experience: be polite even when disagreeing with the interviewer and don't come across as an axe murderer and you'll be fine). An alternative you might consider proposing to them is for the company to hire/sponsor you to continue working on your open source project with the agreement along the lines of: 1. you'll be adding features to better fit their needs 2. you'll help them plug your project into their product as needed
- PragmaticPulp 5y agoYou forgot to mention the most important detail: Do you actually want this job? > Then they go on and explain i’d have to do 4 more meetings 1-2 hours each, including a leetcode-style tech interview Even 4x2 hour interviews is still only 8 hours. Let’s call it 16 hours, worst case, to account for the disruption and setup time as well as small talk. Even 16 hours is only equivalent to 2 days of this new job. If you’re going to be spending 200 days per year working side by side with these new people, you want to take advantage of this time to see how they work, how they interact with you, and how compatible you are with them. Potentially unpopular opinion on HN, but I don’t see this as unreasonable. This job could last for a long time. The interview, even with four sessions, will not. > In my head i’m thinking: “If their leetcode-engineers are that good why do they have rely on my open-source?” Because no company should be writing things from scratch when viable open-source alternatives are available? Honestly, your post suggests that maybe you don’t really respect this company, from their use of your library through the fact that they want you to go through the same interview process as other candidates (important for accurate hiring decisions as well as fairness). If you’re digging deep for excuses to dislike them already, maybe you aren’t a good fit for this job.
- nescioquid 5y agoI thought the company contacted the developer to offer him a job based on his open source work, not that the developer applied to work at the company. If the company sought out the developer to offer a job and then demands 16 hours of jumping through hoops, then that seems both confused and inconsiderate. If that actually is the case, I could see myself happily telling the company to not waste my time, but if they really have an offer, let's hear it.
- busyuser 5y agoWhy send a personal letter then?
- PragmaticPulp 5y agoThat's how recruiting works. Honestly, what else would you want them to do? Send an impersonal letter?
- tawb 5y agoWe've been having a larger internal debate about the type of leetcode interview and architecture questions we ask, and how valuable the signal is for testing something completely unrelated to our real work. My two cents, the interviews here are going to help them assess how you work your way through problems, how you think and process, and how you communicate. That is a very valuable signal to get out of someone you're potentially going to be in the trenches collaborating with. That is the true value behind these route sets of challenges, much more son than "can this person code?" We've hired engineers that have been absolutely amazing teammates in our department that on paper have had wonky technical interview questions, but it was because of the attitude and their approach in the moment that won us over. They know you can code, they can see the OSS. The "hoops" here are for the intangibles.
- t0mbstone 5y agoI have hired quite a few interview candidates that did AMAZING on the interviews and code tests, but turned out to be terrible programmers when it came to real world problems and/or team dynamics. I've also had candidates that utterly bombed their interviews, but we gave them a chance and they turned out to be some of the best employees we ever had. Unless someone's daily job is going to actually be writing leet puzzle code all day, leet puzzle code tests don't tell you all that much about how someone can actually perform their job, especially when under the pressure of a stressful interview environment. I'm at a point now where I firmly believe that what all these leet code tests are actually about is GATEKEEPING. It's about making devs feel smug about themselves as they administer the test to the candidate, and it's about inflating their own egos. It's basically just a form of hazing. After all, anyone can ace those puzzles if they study them beforehand. You might as well be hiring them based off of whether or not they can solve a Rubik's cube. So I stopped doing those types of interviews. I have a "gut check" conversation with the dev to get a rough sense of their skill level, and then I might hire them on a contract basis to do REAL work on my projects. If I like their work, I might hire them full time. It's the ONLY REAL way to find out how someone actually works, and whether or not you get along with them.
- dragonwriter 5y ago> What: engineering manager writes me e-mail that goes like: “we found your open-source project and want to offer you a job” If you want to offer a job, offer a job. They seem to have confused “job” with “hazing ritual after which you might be offered a job”, which is...less attractive. I get the need to filter an excess of applicants who come to you cold or in response to an advertised opening, but if you are reaching out to someone, whatever motivated you to reach out ought to substitute for several layers of filtering. If you are reaching out for demonstrated, job-relevant coding acheivement, leetcode style exercises are not merely wasteful and insulting, but also a sign to the prospect that your management is mindlessly walking through checklists rather than thinking through their actions. Do you want to work in an environment where that's how things are run? Especially a startup, which has instability and other issues that people accept to avoid that kind of bigco blind bureaucracy?
- throwaway879080 5y agoset your terms
- comeonseriously 5y agoTell them to fuck off. Offering you a job is not making you spend hours doing stupid leetcode shit.
- rasz 5y ago>In my head i’m thinking: “If their leetcode-engineers are that good why do they have rely on my open-source?” >What would you do in this situation? I would ask out loud “If your leetcode-engineers are that good why do you have rely on my open-source?”. Mind you I did that once when company I was contracting for wanted to hire me full time. They went with someone else with brilliant CV and ace whiteboard skills. They got in touch almost a year later asking for a rescue mission when nothing worked anymore, made more money contracting again than if I would work there full time. How about you ask them for consulting gig instead?
- busyuser 5y agoWhy would they accept my consulting gig though if they can hire someone to do it themselves?
- x0x0 5y agoIt's hard to hire. If it were easy, they wouldn't be reaching out to you with bullshit job interview offers disguised as job offers. You have (presumably) a pile of expertise in this particular area that they will have to painfully recreate. Including the experience of having built this thing once, and all the lessons from doing so. As the project maintainer, you get a privileged stream of insights into how other companies are using the library / tool.
- everyone 5y agoYou should say this to them. Say you dont think that type of interview is a a good use of time in this case and state your reasons. Then propose what you think would be reasonable, or what you would like. Most people in business seem to do things just so they look the part, eg. they do whatever everyone else is doing. Cus, in reality they usually dont really know what they are doing. If they want you, and you want to work there, and ye are both reasonable, then ye should be able to work something out. If one or more of those things are not true then you shouldnt work there anyway.
- Buttons840 5y agoI like the book Crucial Conversations. It would say to be 100% respectful and understanding of their interview process and 100% honest that you're concerned about the length of the interview process. Done well, this should cause no harm and may help you.
- sleepysysadmin 5y ago>Who: Series B startup with ~$100 million in funding, me open-source developer That $100 million isnt in your pocket. This isn't 100% reliable source of income. It might seem like alot but it's not established yet. >In a meeting they explain how they were interested in using my open-source project and want to hire me so i could carry out a similar work for them Sweet, i assume they want to use your code. Might try to be tricky and get you to sign your code away. Then fire you and keep the code base. >Then they go on and explain i’d have to do 4 more meetings 1-2 hours each, including a leetcode-style tech interview Kind of a red flag in my books. If they are coming to you, then it's the reverse. Like they should be offering you equity or something. I dunno. They need to win you over and bureaucracy isn't how to do that.
- busyuser 5y ago> Might try to be tricky and get you to sign your code away My code is GPL, lol
- sleepysysadmin 5y ago>My code is GPL, lol Like I dont know either way what's going on. There's tons of examples where an employer has you sign your rights away, then removes the GPL license and then starts publishing the code as proprietary.
- JohnBooty 5y agoThen they go on and explain i’d have to do 4 more meetings 1-2 hours each Just went through a job search myself and found this exhausting, but extremely valuable. 1. Got to meet my potential teammates, get a feel for if I'd fit in and if I'd want to work with them 2. Got to ask questions of my potential teammates, without management around. Got to ask them about pain points of working at Company XYZ, etc. That said, "4 interviews @ 1-2 hours each" seems excessive. I found the typical process was more like "4 interviews @ 1 hour each." I know 4 hours is a LOT of time, but this is potentially a job at which you'll be spending years. Approximately 2000+ working hours per year. In that context I think it's not crazy.
- sys_64738 5y agoJust tell them no you ain't interested in their interview charade. No is a powerful word.
- codingclaws 5y agoPersonally, I reject all companies that want to do more than one round.
- bb88 5y agoHiring in 2021 should be flexible. If they're not willing to be, then you have some different options. But since they went out of their way to contact you, you basically have the upper hand here. See if they're willing to enter into a contract for 60-120 days. This is relatively low risk for the company, since a contract usually skews in favor of the company to terminate early. Chances are they'll contract you and realize they can't live without you, so you'll be in a better negotiating position when negotiating a full-time salary.
- irvingprime 5y agoI, personally, draw lines about what I'm willing to put up with and what I'm not. When the interview process begins to resemble a gauntlet or even a hazing, I walk away. Why? Because they are showing that they don't respect the candidate's time and also they lack humility. They are unmindful of the possibility that the candidate could decide to go elsewhere. Four more meetings at 1-2 hours each means between 4 and 8 more hours of interviews. That's definitely moving in to gauntlet territory. But maybe it's the result of an immature hiring process. I would give them a chance but if there are any more red flags, I would probably withdraw from the process.
- aaronrobinson 5y agoSkilled engineers are in demand and every possible route is being explored to source them. Given the interview process requirement this sounds like it isn’t as personal as implied and that they are interested in your engineering skills versus your project. You might not care about that and seethes as a way in to paid employment in which case go for it. If not then respond to ask for some time to talk to someone that is capable of discussing their interest in your specific project before committing any time to interviews or prep.