4 ms·

So things shouldn't be simpler, faster and easier to use?

rglover 5y ago
They should/can, but not at the expense of understanding how the underlying system works. Right now, the major players significantly abstract away from "how the web works" which means newer developers don't understand and are being led into a trap. Cute marketing terms like "serverless" confuse developers into thinking there is no server (or even worse, that there's such a thing as a "serverless developer"). I'm working on this problem right now: https://github.com/cheatcode/joystick https://github.com/cheatcode/joystick. I know I sound like a curmudgeon when I say this stuff but it's a serious problem that will have dire consequences later (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko).
- gk1 5y ago
  Have you actually run into developers who think "serverless" means there is no server anywhere? Does anyone think "cloud" means there are no servers? I think -- and maybe I'm wrong -- it's obvious that of course there's a server, it's just not mine to care for.
  - rglover 5y ago
    Yes, I've worked with them 1-on-1.
- bnchrch 5y ago
  I do love that this is literally old man yells at the cloud. Though in general our profession is built on and about building abstractions. I don’t expect every 2010s web dev to know the intricacies of memory allocation, nor do I expect every 2020s web dev to know about nginx config or asset cache invalidation. It’s handy sure, but required no. They’re all abstractions that you learn if and when necessary.
  - rglover 5y ago
    I'm 33.
    - handrous 5y ago
      37. Very glad I'll have a long career fixing broken "apps" when web devs no longer have a clue how TCP or HTTP works. Hell, many don't know about tons of HTML features, many of which are literally decades old at this point. "Web" dev indeed.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - dntrkv 5y ago
      You can be an old man at 33, I’ve met plenty in this industry.
      - rglover 5y ago
        Congratulations. That doesn't disqualify my point.
- tnolet 5y ago
  > Right now, the major players significantly abstract away from "how the web works" which means newer developers don't understand and are being led into a trap Well, that argument always goes. Linux users don't know how CPU scheduling works. CPU builders don't know how silicon etching works. The list is endless. Web developers should build experiences with the best tools available. Apparently, these are the new preferred tools. There is no trap.
  - rglover 5y ago
    You just made my point. Watch the Jonathan Blow talk I linked, he calls out (in detail) exactly what you just said.
- hasmanean 5y ago
  Yup. Paradoxically I find it much easier to understand something when I know the layer inmediately below it. Middle layers of software stacks are not implemented in a way that makes sense in isolation. There is always a reason why something is done a certain way and that reason usually comes from a lower layer. For people who love to ask “why”, being forced to understand a single layer of a software stack is mental torture. Those who proclaim something is good because “you don’t have to think about x,y,z” are missing the point. Yes in the near term maybe, but long term its not the best solution.

They should/can, but not at the expense of understanding how the underlying system works. Right now, the major players significantly abstract away from "how the web works" which means newer developers don't understand and are being led into a trap. Cute marketing terms like "serverless" confuse developers into thinking there is no server (or even worse, that there's such a thing as a "serverless developer"). I'm working on this problem right now: https://github.com/cheatcode/joystick https://github.com/cheatcode/joystick. I know I sound like a curmudgeon when I say this stuff but it's a serious problem that will have dire consequences later (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko).

gk1 5y ago
Have you actually run into developers who think "serverless" means there is no server anywhere? Does anyone think "cloud" means there are no servers? I think -- and maybe I'm wrong -- it's obvious that of course there's a server, it's just not mine to care for.
- rglover 5y ago
  Yes, I've worked with them 1-on-1.
bnchrch 5y ago
I do love that this is literally old man yells at the cloud. Though in general our profession is built on and about building abstractions. I don’t expect every 2010s web dev to know the intricacies of memory allocation, nor do I expect every 2020s web dev to know about nginx config or asset cache invalidation. It’s handy sure, but required no. They’re all abstractions that you learn if and when necessary.
- rglover 5y ago
  I'm 33.
  - handrous 5y ago
    37. Very glad I'll have a long career fixing broken "apps" when web devs no longer have a clue how TCP or HTTP works. Hell, many don't know about tons of HTML features, many of which are literally decades old at this point. "Web" dev indeed.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - dntrkv 5y ago
    You can be an old man at 33, I’ve met plenty in this industry.
    - rglover 5y ago
      Congratulations. That doesn't disqualify my point.
tnolet 5y ago
> Right now, the major players significantly abstract away from "how the web works" which means newer developers don't understand and are being led into a trap Well, that argument always goes. Linux users don't know how CPU scheduling works. CPU builders don't know how silicon etching works. The list is endless. Web developers should build experiences with the best tools available. Apparently, these are the new preferred tools. There is no trap.
- rglover 5y ago
  You just made my point. Watch the Jonathan Blow talk I linked, he calls out (in detail) exactly what you just said.
hasmanean 5y ago
Yup. Paradoxically I find it much easier to understand something when I know the layer inmediately below it. Middle layers of software stacks are not implemented in a way that makes sense in isolation. There is always a reason why something is done a certain way and that reason usually comes from a lower layer. For people who love to ask “why”, being forced to understand a single layer of a software stack is mental torture. Those who proclaim something is good because “you don’t have to think about x,y,z” are missing the point. Yes in the near term maybe, but long term its not the best solution.