6 ms·

I'm all for pushing for more right-to-repair, but I'm not sure pushing for facilitating component level repair that require soldering is the right way to go. T

by audunw 5y ago

I'm all for pushing for more right-to-repair, but I'm not sure pushing for facilitating component level repair that require soldering is the right way to go. Those kinds of repairs are incredibly difficult (I've done some myself). There are very few people I would trust to do it right, and it's hard to know which repair shop to trust. If Apple put out manuals and components for those kinds of repairs, I can imagine the number of botched repairs skyrocketing, and the resale value of the phones diminishing significantly. I think there's a balance to strike: you want easy repairs to keep phones going for a long time, but you also want people buying used phones to not worry about getting a frankensteined phone that will last 2 weeks before dying. Only by having high trust in the second hand market do you actually get phones that get used for years and years rather than staying in a drawer or getting trashed when people buy new ones. I would even support having ID-tags on all components and having them bound to the phone, as long as anyone can buy original replaceable components from Apple at a fair price, and that anyone can do the binding procedure themselves.. including moving components from one phone to another. You should be able to see the history of all the components in the phone, so you have some idea if a third party repair shop just moved an ID chip from an old original battery to a new unoriginal one, or used a really old original battery. I've experienced several times that screens and batteries you get at third party repair shops die/break much faster than the ones that come with the phone. Why is that? Is it really better to use brand new electronics that will be trash in a few months, just to extend the life a bit? If you're going to replace the battery and screen, you better be damn sure that the phones lasts 2-3 years or more, because you're buying brand new parts, constituting a large fraction of the rare and expensive materials used by the phone.. so it's not that much better than just buying an entirely new phone where all components could easily last 5 years if you treat them well.

bluSCALE4 5y ago
You do realize you're holding the repair industry against your ability, right? You've probably attempted a few handful of repairs that required solder. You do realize people do this for a living? Sure, I'd probably say that 1/2 the people out there claiming to be repair people are just hacks with no skill but I've come to realize that that's the truth in ANY industry. You wouldn't want a new engine for a timing belt change, or a master cylinder repair. Would you take it to Jiffy Lube for this stuff? Absolutely not, but there are qualified people out there to do the work just as there are people that can rip out a pinless chip and replace it in their sleep.
- kube-system 5y ago
  This announcement was not about the repair industry. It was about consumers repairing their own devices.
ComputerGuru 5y ago
The alternative to a difficult component repair is paying fifty to ninety percent of the cost of a new phone altogether for Apple to swap it with a refurbished one. It’s easy to see why your argument holds no water in that case.
- kube-system 5y ago
  The cost of the equipment to do component levels repairs on an iPhone is well over 100% of the cost of a new iPhone. And the skills required are not reasonable to expect of any but a handful of consumers. The repairs are difficult enough that literally Apple doesn't do them.
  - ComputerGuru 5y ago
    Equipment costs are capex and amortized over all repairs. Apple doesn’t do them because of economies of scale and the cost of hiring talented repairers.
    - kube-system 5y ago
      This announcement is about consumer self-service repair. Not repair facilities justifying a capital expense. But as you mention, the associated labor cost is prohibitive even for Apple. So who exactly is component-level repair of iPhones a good option for? It seems that it's more of an ideological position than a practical repair technique.
  - q3k 5y ago
    > The cost of the equipment to do component levels repairs on an iPhone is well over 100% of the cost of a new iPhone. Nah. If you know what's broken (which is often a cheap multimeter test away given you have the right schematics/boardview files) you can totally get by with a cheap hotair (858D-style clone for $60), a decent soldering iron (even a dinky TS100, $70), and some decent miscellaneous tools and supplies (tweezers, flux, solder). This is equipment anyone that does any sort of electronics should already have. And likely equipment you'll find at a local hackerspace. For 01005-sized SMD passives you'll most likely also need a cheap binocular microscope (an amscope on a gooseneck for $150 will do), but you can totally do 0201-level stuff without one if you have good eyesight. It gets a bit more expensive if you're doing BGA swaps from donor boards because you need to reball them, but it's still easily all within a $1k budget for all the tools required. But hey, if Apple just allowed you to buy their BGA components new instead of people having to use donor boards, this wouldn't be needed. Component level repair is not voodoo magic, you just need practice and a steady hand. Equipment is cheaper than ever. Pretending it's out of the hands of an average curious hacker is playing into Apple's bullshit about how magical and integrated their devices are and that therefore they're the only ones that can possibly work on them.
clarge1120 5y ago
But, so what? This is not an argument about soldering or other specialized skills required to do a scary sounding repair.
passivate 5y ago
>and it's hard to know which repair shop to trust. Cmon! We've solved much much harder problems as a society. Heck we've solved the same problem when it comes to repairing cars. I know plenty of repair shops who I trust to repair my car. We've solve the same problem when it comes to trusting someone to save our lives - doctors. And if someone is still unable to find a repair shop they can take their device to Apple as they've always done. Its all about more choice. Lets focus on the real issues, rather than distractions. We should be pushing for less e-waste, more repair in all industries.
- least 5y ago
  > I know plenty of repair shops who I trust to repair my car. Then you are extraordinarily lucky or possibly just too ignorant about cars to know when you're getting ripped off. Repair shops frequently rip people off and is not a solved problem. > We've solve the same problem when it comes to trusting someone to save our lives - doctors. We also have certifications and laws in place to protect people from entrusting their lives with someone who is saving our lives. No such requirements exist for a phone repairman. The AASP program is one such protection in place but is derided by that industry as being too expensive and not good enough. I'm not suggesting that we need to elevate the standards here, but to suggest that this is a solved problem is disingenuous. It's not solved because it's not that important in the grand scheme of things.
  - passivate 5y ago
    We don't live in a perfect world, so to me its a solved problem for any reasonable definition. In any case, I don't understand what your comment has to do with right to repair. I am for right to repair and anyone suggesting Apple is correct to be anti-repair because "it's hard to know which repair shop to trust" is the one being disingenuous.
    - least 5y ago
      > We don't live in a perfect world, so to me its a solved problem for any reasonable definition. It's not reasonable, though. Repair shops are notoriously shady because it depends on someone with generally lesser knowledge to trust a stranger to diagnose and fix issues for you. How are you to know that the repair they are suggesting is necessary? For a phone sure, you can clearly see that the screen is cracked and needs replacement, but what about less visible issues? It's a matter of trust with zero oversight or accountability. > In any case, I don't understand what your comment has to do with right to repair. I'm pointing out that it's not a solved issue. You're framing it as if it's uncomplicated or lacks nuance when it isn't. I think we need to very clearly define what "right to repair" means if you're going to ask me if I'm for against it. The problem is that you can ask ten different people what it means to them and get ten different answers. I'd say I'm pro right to repair in my personal definition of what that means, but I know for certain that it's not the same as others. I'm tired of 'movements' that don't concretely define their goals or purpose, particularly when it comes to legislation.

by audunw 5y ago

bluSCALE4 5y ago

You do realize you're holding the repair industry against your ability, right? You've probably attempted a few handful of repairs that required solder. You do realize people do this for a living? Sure, I'd probably say that 1/2 the people out there claiming to be repair people are just hacks with no skill but I've come to realize that that's the truth in ANY industry. You wouldn't want a new engine for a timing belt change, or a master cylinder repair. Would you take it to Jiffy Lube for this stuff? Absolutely not, but there are qualified people out there to do the work just as there are people that can rip out a pinless chip and replace it in their sleep.

kube-system 5y ago
This announcement was not about the repair industry. It was about consumers repairing their own devices.

ComputerGuru 5y ago

The alternative to a difficult component repair is paying fifty to ninety percent of the cost of a new phone altogether for Apple to swap it with a refurbished one. It’s easy to see why your argument holds no water in that case.

kube-system 5y ago
The cost of the equipment to do component levels repairs on an iPhone is well over 100% of the cost of a new iPhone. And the skills required are not reasonable to expect of any but a handful of consumers. The repairs are difficult enough that literally Apple doesn't do them.
- ComputerGuru 5y ago
  Equipment costs are capex and amortized over all repairs. Apple doesn’t do them because of economies of scale and the cost of hiring talented repairers.
  - kube-system 5y ago
    This announcement is about consumer self-service repair. Not repair facilities justifying a capital expense. But as you mention, the associated labor cost is prohibitive even for Apple. So who exactly is component-level repair of iPhones a good option for? It seems that it's more of an ideological position than a practical repair technique.
- q3k 5y ago
  > The cost of the equipment to do component levels repairs on an iPhone is well over 100% of the cost of a new iPhone. Nah. If you know what's broken (which is often a cheap multimeter test away given you have the right schematics/boardview files) you can totally get by with a cheap hotair (858D-style clone for $60), a decent soldering iron (even a dinky TS100, $70), and some decent miscellaneous tools and supplies (tweezers, flux, solder). This is equipment anyone that does any sort of electronics should already have. And likely equipment you'll find at a local hackerspace. For 01005-sized SMD passives you'll most likely also need a cheap binocular microscope (an amscope on a gooseneck for $150 will do), but you can totally do 0201-level stuff without one if you have good eyesight. It gets a bit more expensive if you're doing BGA swaps from donor boards because you need to reball them, but it's still easily all within a $1k budget for all the tools required. But hey, if Apple just allowed you to buy their BGA components new instead of people having to use donor boards, this wouldn't be needed. Component level repair is not voodoo magic, you just need practice and a steady hand. Equipment is cheaper than ever. Pretending it's out of the hands of an average curious hacker is playing into Apple's bullshit about how magical and integrated their devices are and that therefore they're the only ones that can possibly work on them.

clarge1120 5y ago

But, so what? This is not an argument about soldering or other specialized skills required to do a scary sounding repair.

passivate 5y ago

>and it's hard to know which repair shop to trust. Cmon! We've solved much much harder problems as a society. Heck we've solved the same problem when it comes to repairing cars. I know plenty of repair shops who I trust to repair my car. We've solve the same problem when it comes to trusting someone to save our lives - doctors. And if someone is still unable to find a repair shop they can take their device to Apple as they've always done. Its all about more choice. Lets focus on the real issues, rather than distractions. We should be pushing for less e-waste, more repair in all industries.

least 5y ago
> I know plenty of repair shops who I trust to repair my car. Then you are extraordinarily lucky or possibly just too ignorant about cars to know when you're getting ripped off. Repair shops frequently rip people off and is not a solved problem. > We've solve the same problem when it comes to trusting someone to save our lives - doctors. We also have certifications and laws in place to protect people from entrusting their lives with someone who is saving our lives. No such requirements exist for a phone repairman. The AASP program is one such protection in place but is derided by that industry as being too expensive and not good enough. I'm not suggesting that we need to elevate the standards here, but to suggest that this is a solved problem is disingenuous. It's not solved because it's not that important in the grand scheme of things.
- passivate 5y ago
  We don't live in a perfect world, so to me its a solved problem for any reasonable definition. In any case, I don't understand what your comment has to do with right to repair. I am for right to repair and anyone suggesting Apple is correct to be anti-repair because "it's hard to know which repair shop to trust" is the one being disingenuous.
  - least 5y ago
    > We don't live in a perfect world, so to me its a solved problem for any reasonable definition. It's not reasonable, though. Repair shops are notoriously shady because it depends on someone with generally lesser knowledge to trust a stranger to diagnose and fix issues for you. How are you to know that the repair they are suggesting is necessary? For a phone sure, you can clearly see that the screen is cracked and needs replacement, but what about less visible issues? It's a matter of trust with zero oversight or accountability. > In any case, I don't understand what your comment has to do with right to repair. I'm pointing out that it's not a solved issue. You're framing it as if it's uncomplicated or lacks nuance when it isn't. I think we need to very clearly define what "right to repair" means if you're going to ask me if I'm for against it. The problem is that you can ask ten different people what it means to them and get ten different answers. I'd say I'm pro right to repair in my personal definition of what that means, but I know for certain that it's not the same as others. I'm tired of 'movements' that don't concretely define their goals or purpose, particularly when it comes to legislation.