6 ms·

> speed traps that just trigger a red light Much better than what I've seen in my (US) city: speed limit 30 mph, but lights timed for 40-45 mph to get a contin

> speed traps that just trigger a red light Much better than what I've seen in my (US) city: speed limit 30 mph, but lights timed for 40-45 mph to get a continuous green light down the one-way street. Either you speed, opening you to tickets, or you stop needlessly on lights that are set for a faster speed than you are traveling.

djrogers 5y ago
Not sure where you are, but if that’s in fact the case, your city would be violating the law in at least California, and likely several other states.
- dhimes 5y ago
  Not GP, but I've seen it in the Boston area.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Not that the .gov won't happily take in money as a result of the dark pattern they've created but the primary cause of the patterns creation is likely the same old poor coordination, inertia and ineptitude that tends to plague government in wealthy areas with lots of stakeholders. The road is signed probably for 30 because that's what is was historically or that's what they got after evaluating what the confusing web of rules and regulations says it should be. The lights are set up for 40-50 because the person responsible for tuning the light a) looked at existing traffic data and set the light to that or b) assessed the properties of the road using totally different measures and determined that's the speed traffic would go. And the city doesn't change the sign to reflect the reality of the traffic because a) they'd have to re-navigate the web of rules to do that and b) shirking potential revenue is a fast track to a dead end job for bureaucrats in that state c) doing nothing is easy.
    - altrow1 5y ago
      that is good people finally realize it. these conspiracies are abundant! intentionally creating street traffic in this "clever conspiracy way" and no-option to cancel online, both are real, and detected few years ago. you see, it is green to discourage people from driving, in this way. yet, technically, they merely destabilize optimum good, not actually being evil.
    - devilbunny 5y ago
      Most assuredly not a wealthy area. But the local government is pretty awful.
- woah 5y ago
  Which law?
  - toast0 5y ago
    https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=40802.&lawCode=VEH https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio... Unless the road is determined to be a local road, posted speed limits are only enforcable if set by an engineering survey, or if it's at least X, which I think is 60 or 65. But I'm not sure it's illegal to post an unenforcable speed limit, or to ticket against it, it's just that those contesting the ticket will win.
tempodox 5y ago
I'd call that a “dark pattern in the physical world”.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  People will do all sorts of ideological gymnastics to justify screwing the public out of money when they money lands in government coffers ad the end of the day.
  - kleer001 5y ago
    Not untrue, but off topic. People here are talking about unjust systems built to needlessly punish law abiding citizens monetarily and time wise. No gymnastics or ideologies necessary. What comes to mind is the obscenity of civil forfeiture used without accompanying crimes upheld against the people who rightfully own said assets.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United...
sixothree 5y ago
We have the absolute worst of this world. If you leave a red light and travel near the speed limit (+/- 15mph) you _will_ catch the next red light. You can absolutely floor it and catch up with the next "pack" of cars and make it into the green light but you will be at the pack for the next light which will be red. I hate it. I hate it so much. Travelling down an avenue for 3 or 4 miles is just painful. The worst is when there is zero traffic (say 10:30 at night) and you sit at red lights watching nobody pass.
bradstewart 5y ago
My personal favorite was a poorly-timed stop light, with a red-light camera. If you entered the intersection as the light turned yellow, and drove the speed limit, you would still be partially in the intersection when the light turned red. And promptly get a ticket in the mail. Nobody realized what was happening (at least not those on the receiving end of the tickets) until my high school math teacher got one. She went out there and measured the intersection, timed the lights, then showed up to contest the ticket with poster boards containing diagrams of the velocity/distance equations.
- woobar 5y ago
  Interesting. Before they made red light cameras illegal in my city they required two photos to prove that you are in violation: - one that shows your car before crossing the stop line when the light is red - second showing your car after crossing the stop line within same light cycle (i.e. seconds from previous photo) No need to do the math if you entered the intersection before the light turned red
- orangepurple 5y ago
  Then gets sued for practicing engineering without a license. In a display of civic engagement, Mats emailed the Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying in the hopes that they could help him raise public awareness and asked for their “support and help to investigate and present the laws of physics related to transportation engineering.” He got the opposite. After curtly informing Mats that they do not regulate traffic lights, the Board warned him that without an engineering license from the state of Oregon, Mats would be breaking the law if he even referred to himself using the word “engineer.” Then, the Board launched an investigation into Mats, which lingered for nearly two years and culminated in a $500 fine. According to the Board, Mats engaged in the unlicensed “practice of engineering” when he spoke publicly about his “critique and calculations” for the yellow-light formula. Moreover, only Oregon-licensed professional engineers are allowed to use the word “engineer” to describe themselves. Although Mats is not a licensed professional engineer (and never claimed to), he has a broad background in math and science. In his native Sweden, Mats earned a degree in electrical engineering, and worked for the Swedish Air Force and Luxor Electronics. Mats even presented his research on traffic-light timing at an Institute of Transportation Engineers conference, and he corresponded with one of the physicists who developed the original 1959 formula. https://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2017/04/28/do-you-need-a-license-in-engineering-to-criticize-red-light-cameras-oregon-says-yes/?sh=1bca8fba32ee https://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2017/04/28/...
woobar 5y ago
Are lights timed to 40-45 mph in both directions?
- devilbunny 5y ago
  Somewhat inconsistently. This was most obvious on a pair of one-way streets, but one of them has been returned to two-way traffic. AFAICT, the waves in opposite direction started at the same time and the two streams passed each other around the halfway point. Other one-way streets in the area aren't on precisely the same schedule. The stretch was only about six or seven blocks long. And the wave didn't start at the boundary street of the area on one end, but one block into the area.

djrogers 5y ago

Not sure where you are, but if that’s in fact the case, your city would be violating the law in at least California, and likely several other states.

dhimes 5y ago
Not GP, but I've seen it in the Boston area.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Not that the .gov won't happily take in money as a result of the dark pattern they've created but the primary cause of the patterns creation is likely the same old poor coordination, inertia and ineptitude that tends to plague government in wealthy areas with lots of stakeholders. The road is signed probably for 30 because that's what is was historically or that's what they got after evaluating what the confusing web of rules and regulations says it should be. The lights are set up for 40-50 because the person responsible for tuning the light a) looked at existing traffic data and set the light to that or b) assessed the properties of the road using totally different measures and determined that's the speed traffic would go. And the city doesn't change the sign to reflect the reality of the traffic because a) they'd have to re-navigate the web of rules to do that and b) shirking potential revenue is a fast track to a dead end job for bureaucrats in that state c) doing nothing is easy.
  - altrow1 5y ago
    that is good people finally realize it. these conspiracies are abundant! intentionally creating street traffic in this "clever conspiracy way" and no-option to cancel online, both are real, and detected few years ago. you see, it is green to discourage people from driving, in this way. yet, technically, they merely destabilize optimum good, not actually being evil.
  - devilbunny 5y ago
    Most assuredly not a wealthy area. But the local government is pretty awful.
woah 5y ago
Which law?
- toast0 5y ago
  https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=40802.&lawCode=VEH https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio... Unless the road is determined to be a local road, posted speed limits are only enforcable if set by an engineering survey, or if it's at least X, which I think is 60 or 65. But I'm not sure it's illegal to post an unenforcable speed limit, or to ticket against it, it's just that those contesting the ticket will win.

tempodox 5y ago

I'd call that a “dark pattern in the physical world”.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
People will do all sorts of ideological gymnastics to justify screwing the public out of money when they money lands in government coffers ad the end of the day.
- kleer001 5y ago
  Not untrue, but off topic. People here are talking about unjust systems built to needlessly punish law abiding citizens monetarily and time wise. No gymnastics or ideologies necessary. What comes to mind is the obscenity of civil forfeiture used without accompanying crimes upheld against the people who rightfully own said assets.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United...

sixothree 5y ago

We have the absolute worst of this world. If you leave a red light and travel near the speed limit (+/- 15mph) you _will_ catch the next red light. You can absolutely floor it and catch up with the next "pack" of cars and make it into the green light but you will be at the pack for the next light which will be red. I hate it. I hate it so much. Travelling down an avenue for 3 or 4 miles is just painful. The worst is when there is zero traffic (say 10:30 at night) and you sit at red lights watching nobody pass.

bradstewart 5y ago

My personal favorite was a poorly-timed stop light, with a red-light camera. If you entered the intersection as the light turned yellow, and drove the speed limit, you would still be partially in the intersection when the light turned red. And promptly get a ticket in the mail. Nobody realized what was happening (at least not those on the receiving end of the tickets) until my high school math teacher got one. She went out there and measured the intersection, timed the lights, then showed up to contest the ticket with poster boards containing diagrams of the velocity/distance equations.

woobar 5y ago
Interesting. Before they made red light cameras illegal in my city they required two photos to prove that you are in violation: - one that shows your car before crossing the stop line when the light is red - second showing your car after crossing the stop line within same light cycle (i.e. seconds from previous photo) No need to do the math if you entered the intersection before the light turned red
orangepurple 5y ago
Then gets sued for practicing engineering without a license. In a display of civic engagement, Mats emailed the Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying in the hopes that they could help him raise public awareness and asked for their “support and help to investigate and present the laws of physics related to transportation engineering.” He got the opposite. After curtly informing Mats that they do not regulate traffic lights, the Board warned him that without an engineering license from the state of Oregon, Mats would be breaking the law if he even referred to himself using the word “engineer.” Then, the Board launched an investigation into Mats, which lingered for nearly two years and culminated in a $500 fine. According to the Board, Mats engaged in the unlicensed “practice of engineering” when he spoke publicly about his “critique and calculations” for the yellow-light formula. Moreover, only Oregon-licensed professional engineers are allowed to use the word “engineer” to describe themselves. Although Mats is not a licensed professional engineer (and never claimed to), he has a broad background in math and science. In his native Sweden, Mats earned a degree in electrical engineering, and worked for the Swedish Air Force and Luxor Electronics. Mats even presented his research on traffic-light timing at an Institute of Transportation Engineers conference, and he corresponded with one of the physicists who developed the original 1959 formula. https://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2017/04/28/do-you-need-a-license-in-engineering-to-criticize-red-light-cameras-oregon-says-yes/?sh=1bca8fba32ee https://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2017/04/28/...

woobar 5y ago

Are lights timed to 40-45 mph in both directions?

devilbunny 5y ago
Somewhat inconsistently. This was most obvious on a pair of one-way streets, but one of them has been returned to two-way traffic. AFAICT, the waves in opposite direction started at the same time and the two streams passed each other around the halfway point. Other one-way streets in the area aren't on precisely the same schedule. The stretch was only about six or seven blocks long. And the wave didn't start at the boundary street of the area on one end, but one block into the area.