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VAT evasion is widespread in certain countries (like Italy for instance), and pushing people to prefer electronic payments to cash is empirically the only reali

VAT evasion is widespread in certain countries (like Italy for instance), and pushing people to prefer electronic payments to cash is empirically the only realistic way to counter it, but there will always be resistance from small retailers until payment fees are low enough. The availability of electronic payments should be universal, I personally hate being forced to constantly carry cash on myself at all times. In a cashless society, there's no point in mugging and robbing, because people don't have untraceable items of value on the at all times.

jCalamari 5y ago
> VAT evasion is widespread in certain countries (like Italy for instance), and pushing people to prefer electronic payments to cash is empirically the only realistic way to counter it The only realist way to counter it is to stop charging VAT. > In a cashless society, there's no point in mugging and robbing, because people don't have untraceable items of value on the at all times. Because all the valuable items are digital and hackers can steal your money without meeting you in person.
mschuster91 5y ago
On the other hand, shifting to electronic payments is building up an incredible surveillance mechanism. Let's just take an example of who is endangered... a 16 year old girl from a strictly religious family who had unprotected sex and needs Plan B. In a cash environment, she'll pay for it with her allowance, and her parents won't ever discover she had bought Plan B. In a cashless society, her parents can see the evidence by checking her bank account. Also, un(der)documented / "illegalized" people literally won't have a way to survive, as their access to bank accounts may be revoked or the government demand a live feed of all transactions, which means that e.g. the police can be dispatched to a supermarket where that person just bought food. IT (and politics) definitely needs ethics education, as all the tech bros and other hypers of "going cashless" never take into account who will be negatively affected by their ideas!
- cesarb 5y ago
  > In a cash environment, she'll pay for it with her allowance, and her parents won't ever discover she had bought Plan B. In a cashless society, her parents can see the evidence by checking her bank account. Playing devil's advocate: that's only if the payment and the product are linked. When I buy something at a pharmacy with a credit or debit card, all that appears on the card together with the value is the name of the pharmacy. Looking at the bank account does not reveal whether the item I bought was toothpaste or chocolate (yes pharmacies also sell chocolate here).
  - mschuster91 5y ago
    Sure, but it exposes the person to a risk nevertheless, especially if they did not think of a suitable excuse that rhymes up with parents going on a deep dive (which many abusive parents or spouses do... just read r/2X, JustNoX, AITA and the likes). A lack of cash allowance can easily be explained by buying some soda or fast food, but a paper trail is harder to consistently explain away.
thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
Lost VAT revenue is not due to mom-and-pop shops offering a discount under the table. The vast majority of lost VAT revenue is due to organized VAT carousel frauds, also knows as missing trader fraud, where an organized groups of 10-20 people siphons tens of millions into their pockets through reimbursements of fictitious trades. It's one of the most lucrative fraud schemes there is, but if caught and convicted, the sentences are usually comparable to that of murderers. If not caught, the accomplices frequently try to assassinate each other in a sort of a sick tournament-style elimination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_trader_fraud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_trader_fraud
- locallost 5y ago
  I don't understand how this works. If I see correctly, one entity in the chain simply does not pay the VAT it collected. Why is it important that it's cross border? I could issue an invoice to my neighbour's company myself and simply not report it. You can always do that and hope you don't get an audit.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

jCalamari 5y ago

> VAT evasion is widespread in certain countries (like Italy for instance), and pushing people to prefer electronic payments to cash is empirically the only realistic way to counter it The only realist way to counter it is to stop charging VAT. > In a cashless society, there's no point in mugging and robbing, because people don't have untraceable items of value on the at all times. Because all the valuable items are digital and hackers can steal your money without meeting you in person.

mschuster91 5y ago

On the other hand, shifting to electronic payments is building up an incredible surveillance mechanism. Let's just take an example of who is endangered... a 16 year old girl from a strictly religious family who had unprotected sex and needs Plan B. In a cash environment, she'll pay for it with her allowance, and her parents won't ever discover she had bought Plan B. In a cashless society, her parents can see the evidence by checking her bank account. Also, un(der)documented / "illegalized" people literally won't have a way to survive, as their access to bank accounts may be revoked or the government demand a live feed of all transactions, which means that e.g. the police can be dispatched to a supermarket where that person just bought food. IT (and politics) definitely needs ethics education, as all the tech bros and other hypers of "going cashless" never take into account who will be negatively affected by their ideas!

cesarb 5y ago
> In a cash environment, she'll pay for it with her allowance, and her parents won't ever discover she had bought Plan B. In a cashless society, her parents can see the evidence by checking her bank account. Playing devil's advocate: that's only if the payment and the product are linked. When I buy something at a pharmacy with a credit or debit card, all that appears on the card together with the value is the name of the pharmacy. Looking at the bank account does not reveal whether the item I bought was toothpaste or chocolate (yes pharmacies also sell chocolate here).
- mschuster91 5y ago
  Sure, but it exposes the person to a risk nevertheless, especially if they did not think of a suitable excuse that rhymes up with parents going on a deep dive (which many abusive parents or spouses do... just read r/2X, JustNoX, AITA and the likes). A lack of cash allowance can easily be explained by buying some soda or fast food, but a paper trail is harder to consistently explain away.

thow-58d4e8b 5y ago

Lost VAT revenue is not due to mom-and-pop shops offering a discount under the table. The vast majority of lost VAT revenue is due to organized VAT carousel frauds, also knows as missing trader fraud, where an organized groups of 10-20 people siphons tens of millions into their pockets through reimbursements of fictitious trades. It's one of the most lucrative fraud schemes there is, but if caught and convicted, the sentences are usually comparable to that of murderers. If not caught, the accomplices frequently try to assassinate each other in a sort of a sick tournament-style elimination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_trader_fraud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_trader_fraud

locallost 5y ago
I don't understand how this works. If I see correctly, one entity in the chain simply does not pay the VAT it collected. Why is it important that it's cross border? I could issue an invoice to my neighbour's company myself and simply not report it. You can always do that and hope you don't get an audit.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]