9 ms·

It looks like it definitely helps if worms are a problem, and maybe possibly helps without, to the extent that further research is justified, but not so much th

It looks like it definitely helps if worms are a problem, and maybe possibly helps without, to the extent that further research is justified, but not so much that we should dose the world with ivermectin just in case.

bayesian_horse 5y ago
And I would add that there are now two drugs who are known to work better, in addition to monoclonal antibodies and multiple vaccines with more than 7 billion doses administered for over a year... Ivermectin MIGHT work... but really... let's move on.
- The_rationalist 5y ago
  Thymalin is by far the most effective treatment, people 1re simply too scientifically illiterate to realize it
- robbedpeter 5y ago
  The bit most people are interested in is the potential prophylactic effect, not so much treatment once you have it (at least the people who are following the science and not buying into the weird cute claims.) It having an apparent antiviral effect during treatment indicates there's a possibility for mechanism of action that can prevent catching covid. It might be noise in the data, but studying it in large trials is justified imo.
  - bayesian_horse 5y ago
    A prophylactic effect would be, pardon me, stupid. There is even less evidence for that, and the vaccines clearly work better. Also you'd need to take Ivermectin continously for the next few years?? Compounding the cost and potential risks from sideeffects. Ivermectin is quite safe, but there are some risks, all drugs can go wrong every once in a while.
    - robbedpeter 5y ago
      You're not pardoned. You could have edited that, but decided not being rude wasn't worth the effort of deleting a single sentence? Maybe just don't write the first condescending thing that pops into your mind. If ivermectin worked as an antiviral prophylactic, it's another tool to use with better stability in storage and transportation, it's cheaper, and immediately useful for places that don't have refrigeration or access to vaccines, or can't use them for medical reasons. It could be effective against coronaviruses generally, which would be great. It would also probably mean a novel mechanism of action which could lead to new drugs. From a purely scientific standpoint, it's a wonderful thing to get more out of microbe based medicines since they're so easy to culture. Iterating over different chemistry using crispr solves many manufacturing issues, and makes drug r&d vastly more accessible around the world. A determined high school science geek could produce ivermectin, but mrna vaccines require multi million dollar labs. The evidence isn't strong, to be perfectly clear, but the payoff is more than just a "stupid" less effective vaccine alternative.
      - bayesian_horse 5y ago
        Not the idea of Ivermectin as prophylactic is stupid, but believing this is the case, as many people clearly do, in my opinion merits that verdict. Beyond the social media hype there is almost no rational reason to believe that. I even have a problem with writing "almost no", because I don't really trust what I've seen in that regard on face value.
- akvadrako 5y ago
  Those other drugs cant compete on price.
  - bayesian_horse 5y ago
    They may with them being in the WHO patent pool. Also a free drug that probably doesn't work isn't all that competitive...
- pieter_mj 5y ago
  Anything that edges you closer to an optimum health state is also beneficial to a certain degree to avoid corona infection. So zinc and vitamine D which enhance and modulate the immune system are recommended. It's not as clearcut as you make it seem. The current vaccines lose their effectiveness over time and are significantly less effective against the delta variant to start with.
  - Nursie 5y ago
    What does "modulate the immune system" mean to you?
    - pieter_mj 5y ago
      For instance Vitamin D helps decrease the risk of a cytokine storm after a (corona) infection, and not overreact. (have no references at hand currently, sorry).
      - Nursie 5y ago
        Honestly that's a way more coherent answer than I was expecting. Thanks :)
      - bayesian_horse 5y ago
        But it doesn't avoid infection and is a lot weaker in protection as even a very old double-vaccination, much less a boostered one.
        pieter_mj 5y ago
        True, but it should be seen as an additional layer to the Swiss cheese model of pandemic defense. The vaccine is the main component, by far, but its number of holes are increasing.
        bayesian_horse 5y ago
        That's a very suspicious way of framing it. The "holes" seem to be mostly the people who don't want to get the vaccine at all. These are the ones responsible for most of the spread and for most of the consequences.

bayesian_horse 5y ago

And I would add that there are now two drugs who are known to work better, in addition to monoclonal antibodies and multiple vaccines with more than 7 billion doses administered for over a year... Ivermectin MIGHT work... but really... let's move on.

The_rationalist 5y ago
Thymalin is by far the most effective treatment, people 1re simply too scientifically illiterate to realize it
robbedpeter 5y ago
The bit most people are interested in is the potential prophylactic effect, not so much treatment once you have it (at least the people who are following the science and not buying into the weird cute claims.) It having an apparent antiviral effect during treatment indicates there's a possibility for mechanism of action that can prevent catching covid. It might be noise in the data, but studying it in large trials is justified imo.
- bayesian_horse 5y ago
  A prophylactic effect would be, pardon me, stupid. There is even less evidence for that, and the vaccines clearly work better. Also you'd need to take Ivermectin continously for the next few years?? Compounding the cost and potential risks from sideeffects. Ivermectin is quite safe, but there are some risks, all drugs can go wrong every once in a while.
  - robbedpeter 5y ago
    You're not pardoned. You could have edited that, but decided not being rude wasn't worth the effort of deleting a single sentence? Maybe just don't write the first condescending thing that pops into your mind. If ivermectin worked as an antiviral prophylactic, it's another tool to use with better stability in storage and transportation, it's cheaper, and immediately useful for places that don't have refrigeration or access to vaccines, or can't use them for medical reasons. It could be effective against coronaviruses generally, which would be great. It would also probably mean a novel mechanism of action which could lead to new drugs. From a purely scientific standpoint, it's a wonderful thing to get more out of microbe based medicines since they're so easy to culture. Iterating over different chemistry using crispr solves many manufacturing issues, and makes drug r&d vastly more accessible around the world. A determined high school science geek could produce ivermectin, but mrna vaccines require multi million dollar labs. The evidence isn't strong, to be perfectly clear, but the payoff is more than just a "stupid" less effective vaccine alternative.
    - bayesian_horse 5y ago
      Not the idea of Ivermectin as prophylactic is stupid, but believing this is the case, as many people clearly do, in my opinion merits that verdict. Beyond the social media hype there is almost no rational reason to believe that. I even have a problem with writing "almost no", because I don't really trust what I've seen in that regard on face value.
akvadrako 5y ago
Those other drugs cant compete on price.
- bayesian_horse 5y ago
  They may with them being in the WHO patent pool. Also a free drug that probably doesn't work isn't all that competitive...
pieter_mj 5y ago
Anything that edges you closer to an optimum health state is also beneficial to a certain degree to avoid corona infection. So zinc and vitamine D which enhance and modulate the immune system are recommended. It's not as clearcut as you make it seem. The current vaccines lose their effectiveness over time and are significantly less effective against the delta variant to start with.
- Nursie 5y ago
  What does "modulate the immune system" mean to you?
  - pieter_mj 5y ago
    For instance Vitamin D helps decrease the risk of a cytokine storm after a (corona) infection, and not overreact. (have no references at hand currently, sorry).
    - Nursie 5y ago
      Honestly that's a way more coherent answer than I was expecting. Thanks :)
    - bayesian_horse 5y ago
      But it doesn't avoid infection and is a lot weaker in protection as even a very old double-vaccination, much less a boostered one.
      - pieter_mj 5y ago
        True, but it should be seen as an additional layer to the Swiss cheese model of pandemic defense. The vaccine is the main component, by far, but its number of holes are increasing.
        bayesian_horse 5y ago
        That's a very suspicious way of framing it. The "holes" seem to be mostly the people who don't want to get the vaccine at all. These are the ones responsible for most of the spread and for most of the consequences.