6 ms·

>its flawed understanding of Catholicism led to some of its greatest debacles, including the failure to see the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. Daily reminder:

>its flawed understanding of Catholicism led to some of its greatest debacles, including the failure to see the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. Daily reminder: the CIA directly and intentionally funded and fomented the rise of islamic fundamentalism in order to counter Soviet interests in Afghanistan through the Mujaheddin in 1976. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone to say the CIA just "misunderstood" religion is outright disinformation.

remarkEon 5y ago
>we literally praised and exhalted the Mujaheddin in a Rambo movie I thought this was a photoshop and wasn't actually in the film?
- reducesuffering 5y ago
  Correct
- Intermernet 5y ago
  The script to Rambo 3 has three mentions of Mujaheddin in it. Two of them are in the following section: "What you see here, are the Mujahedin soldiers, holy warriors. To us, this war is a holy war. And there is no true death for a Mujahedin, because we have taken our last nights, and because we consider us already dead. To us, death for our land and God is an honor. So, my friend, what we must do is to stop this killing of our women and children. If getting this man free, so he can tell to the free world, and tell what happens here, is necessary then of course we will help." I'm not sure if that's praising or exalting, but it wasn't damning in the context of the movie. My favourite (and probably most prescient and ironic) quote from the movie is: "You can't defeat a people like that. We tried. We already had our Vietnam! Now you're gonna have yours!"
- pjc50 5y ago
  The specific message is indeed a photoshop, but the film was broadly pro-Mujaheddin as it was anti-Soviet. As was The Living Daylights, in which the Mujaheddin led by an Oxford-educated Afghan help James Bond destroy a rogue Soviet drug-running operation.
1cvmask 5y ago
Zbigniew Brzezinski to the Mujahideen in Afghanistan: "Your cause is right and God is on your side!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9RCFZnWGE0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9RCFZnWGE0 And the CIA weaponizes religion for it's purposes including using Uyghur extremists or Isis members. One of the experts on that is the retired Graham Fuller: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_E._Fuller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_E._Fuller - Graham Fuller's daughter used to be married to the uncle of the Boston marathon bombers and he had arranged their visas as well as the visa for the wanted "Islamic" fundamentalist cleric Gulen, who is the spiritual leader of the CIA's Islam and Enes Kanter. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21692069 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21692069 https://www.mintpressnews.com/celtics-cia-gulenist-hoops-star-enes-kanter-rides-benches/278827/ https://www.mintpressnews.com/celtics-cia-gulenist-hoops-sta... https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-nwTCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA61&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-nwTCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA61&red...
LogonType10 5y ago
>to say the CIA just "misunderstood" religion is outright disinformation They definitely understood it, and they also understood that the USSR had 45,000 nuclear weapons pointed at your backyard.
- anticodon 5y ago
  > They definitely understood it, and they also understood that the USSR had 45,000 nuclear weapons pointed at your backyard. And USSR understood that immediately after WWII end, USA planned to finish what Nazis started. Using also nuclear bombs which USSR didn't have at the time.
  - drran 5y ago
    Communists in USSR killed about 10x more innocents than Nazi. (Did you heard about Holodomor?). Why Nazi bad but USSR isn't?
    - trasz 5y ago
      If you count Holodomor as communism victims, you should also count all the people who died of poverty in the West as capitalism victims.
      - goohle 5y ago
        Famine ≠ killing by starving to death. USSR had massive famines before and after Holodomor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
    - whydoibother 5y ago
      Body counts as indicators of who is more evil is so absurd. What a useless argument. How many people did the USSR lift out of poverty and extend the lifespan of? Same with Mao and China. People who frame these as “omg but their body count” are so obviously disingenuous. Never see them mention body counts of the British empire or the American empire. Nooo, can’t do that. Commy man bad.
ethbr0 5y ago
> Daily reminder: the CIA directly and intentionally funded and fomented the rise of islamic fundamentalism in order to counter Soviet interests in Afghanistan through the Mujaheddin in 1976 That seems incomplete enough to be a misleading statement. Ghost Wars (Steve Coll) is as authoritative and well-sourced treatment as I've found. It lays out the imperative as "confront the Soviets in Afghanistan." To that end, the State Department and CIA continually bickered over who to best fund and arm in Afghanistan. Add in the added complexity that most funding was run through the Pakistani ISI, but paid for by the Saudis and Gulf states, all of whom generally had no compunctions and/or outright preference for Islamic fundamentalists (Pakistan due to India, Saudis due to portions of the royal family). And on top of that, you had a constant realpolitik (arm who will fight, and who our allies will support) vs ideological (arm who believes more in democracy) debate going on. Generally speaking, the Islamists were willing the right, but the moderates tended to find reasons to avoid committing their forces, despite being paid to do exactly that. So an accurate statement would be "the CIA helped funnel Saudi money to Afghani mujahideen, with Pakistan's ISI steering large portions of that towards Islamist groups, a practice which the US generally knew about but saw no way around."
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  You do know that all the mujahideen were Islamists, right? We are talking about Afghanistan. The Mujahid group that was the least Islamist was led by the heir of a religious order and structured as such. The OP's assertion are fully accurate. The CIA knowingly funded and fomented the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. It is incorrect the relationship was fully indirect. The CIA directly met with militant Islamic fundamentalist groups, including inviting leaders to the USA, and directly funding them : https://books.google.com/books?id=b95MAgAAQBAJ&q=cia%2C+bin+laden&pg=PA289 https://books.google.com/books?id=b95MAgAAQBAJ&q=cia%2C+bin+... https://books.google.com/books?id=wcljXYTZVnUC&q=rABBANI,+reagan https://books.google.com/books?id=wcljXYTZVnUC&q=rABBANI,+re... https://books.google.com/books?id=r3TLByMXsJkC&q=thatcher,+hekmatyar&pg=PA169 https://books.google.com/books?id=r3TLByMXsJkC&q=thatcher,+h... https://books.google.com/books?id=N8Qxf-33dxMC&q=howard+hart%2C+abdul+haq&pg=PT69 https://books.google.com/books?id=N8Qxf-33dxMC&q=howard+hart... https://books.google.com/books?id=-R13CgAAQBAJ&q=zalmay%2C+gulbuddin%2C+us+tour&pg=PT52 https://books.google.com/books?id=-R13CgAAQBAJ&q=zalmay%2C+g... https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2008/07/11/afghan-warlords-formerly-backed-by-the-cia-now-turn-their-guns-on-us-troops https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2008/07/11/afghan... http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/01/201212614551208744.html http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/01/2012126145... The evidence is absolutely crushing. The statement of the OP is not misleading at all - it is completely accurate.
chucktingle 5y ago
Fully agree. To add to the list of "religious" mischief the CIA is involved with, let's take a look at the Tibetan situation and the current Dalai Lama: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program
perl4ever 5y ago
>Daily reminder Indeed.

remarkEon 5y ago

>we literally praised and exhalted the Mujaheddin in a Rambo movie I thought this was a photoshop and wasn't actually in the film?

reducesuffering 5y ago
Correct
Intermernet 5y ago
The script to Rambo 3 has three mentions of Mujaheddin in it. Two of them are in the following section: "What you see here, are the Mujahedin soldiers, holy warriors. To us, this war is a holy war. And there is no true death for a Mujahedin, because we have taken our last nights, and because we consider us already dead. To us, death for our land and God is an honor. So, my friend, what we must do is to stop this killing of our women and children. If getting this man free, so he can tell to the free world, and tell what happens here, is necessary then of course we will help." I'm not sure if that's praising or exalting, but it wasn't damning in the context of the movie. My favourite (and probably most prescient and ironic) quote from the movie is: "You can't defeat a people like that. We tried. We already had our Vietnam! Now you're gonna have yours!"
pjc50 5y ago
The specific message is indeed a photoshop, but the film was broadly pro-Mujaheddin as it was anti-Soviet. As was The Living Daylights, in which the Mujaheddin led by an Oxford-educated Afghan help James Bond destroy a rogue Soviet drug-running operation.

1cvmask 5y ago

Zbigniew Brzezinski to the Mujahideen in Afghanistan: "Your cause is right and God is on your side!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9RCFZnWGE0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9RCFZnWGE0 And the CIA weaponizes religion for it's purposes including using Uyghur extremists or Isis members. One of the experts on that is the retired Graham Fuller: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_E._Fuller https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_E._Fuller - Graham Fuller's daughter used to be married to the uncle of the Boston marathon bombers and he had arranged their visas as well as the visa for the wanted "Islamic" fundamentalist cleric Gulen, who is the spiritual leader of the CIA's Islam and Enes Kanter. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21692069 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21692069 https://www.mintpressnews.com/celtics-cia-gulenist-hoops-star-enes-kanter-rides-benches/278827/ https://www.mintpressnews.com/celtics-cia-gulenist-hoops-sta... https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-nwTCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA61&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-nwTCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA61&red...

LogonType10 5y ago

>to say the CIA just "misunderstood" religion is outright disinformation They definitely understood it, and they also understood that the USSR had 45,000 nuclear weapons pointed at your backyard.

anticodon 5y ago
> They definitely understood it, and they also understood that the USSR had 45,000 nuclear weapons pointed at your backyard. And USSR understood that immediately after WWII end, USA planned to finish what Nazis started. Using also nuclear bombs which USSR didn't have at the time.
- drran 5y ago
  Communists in USSR killed about 10x more innocents than Nazi. (Did you heard about Holodomor?). Why Nazi bad but USSR isn't?
  - trasz 5y ago
    If you count Holodomor as communism victims, you should also count all the people who died of poverty in the West as capitalism victims.
    - goohle 5y ago
      Famine ≠ killing by starving to death. USSR had massive famines before and after Holodomor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
  - whydoibother 5y ago
    Body counts as indicators of who is more evil is so absurd. What a useless argument. How many people did the USSR lift out of poverty and extend the lifespan of? Same with Mao and China. People who frame these as “omg but their body count” are so obviously disingenuous. Never see them mention body counts of the British empire or the American empire. Nooo, can’t do that. Commy man bad.

ethbr0 5y ago

> Daily reminder: the CIA directly and intentionally funded and fomented the rise of islamic fundamentalism in order to counter Soviet interests in Afghanistan through the Mujaheddin in 1976 That seems incomplete enough to be a misleading statement. Ghost Wars (Steve Coll) is as authoritative and well-sourced treatment as I've found. It lays out the imperative as "confront the Soviets in Afghanistan." To that end, the State Department and CIA continually bickered over who to best fund and arm in Afghanistan. Add in the added complexity that most funding was run through the Pakistani ISI, but paid for by the Saudis and Gulf states, all of whom generally had no compunctions and/or outright preference for Islamic fundamentalists (Pakistan due to India, Saudis due to portions of the royal family). And on top of that, you had a constant realpolitik (arm who will fight, and who our allies will support) vs ideological (arm who believes more in democracy) debate going on. Generally speaking, the Islamists were willing the right, but the moderates tended to find reasons to avoid committing their forces, despite being paid to do exactly that. So an accurate statement would be "the CIA helped funnel Saudi money to Afghani mujahideen, with Pakistan's ISI steering large portions of that towards Islamist groups, a practice which the US generally knew about but saw no way around."

sudosysgen 5y ago
You do know that all the mujahideen were Islamists, right? We are talking about Afghanistan. The Mujahid group that was the least Islamist was led by the heir of a religious order and structured as such. The OP's assertion are fully accurate. The CIA knowingly funded and fomented the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. It is incorrect the relationship was fully indirect. The CIA directly met with militant Islamic fundamentalist groups, including inviting leaders to the USA, and directly funding them : https://books.google.com/books?id=b95MAgAAQBAJ&q=cia%2C+bin+laden&pg=PA289 https://books.google.com/books?id=b95MAgAAQBAJ&q=cia%2C+bin+... https://books.google.com/books?id=wcljXYTZVnUC&q=rABBANI,+reagan https://books.google.com/books?id=wcljXYTZVnUC&q=rABBANI,+re... https://books.google.com/books?id=r3TLByMXsJkC&q=thatcher,+hekmatyar&pg=PA169 https://books.google.com/books?id=r3TLByMXsJkC&q=thatcher,+h... https://books.google.com/books?id=N8Qxf-33dxMC&q=howard+hart%2C+abdul+haq&pg=PT69 https://books.google.com/books?id=N8Qxf-33dxMC&q=howard+hart... https://books.google.com/books?id=-R13CgAAQBAJ&q=zalmay%2C+gulbuddin%2C+us+tour&pg=PT52 https://books.google.com/books?id=-R13CgAAQBAJ&q=zalmay%2C+g... https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2008/07/11/afghan-warlords-formerly-backed-by-the-cia-now-turn-their-guns-on-us-troops https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2008/07/11/afghan... http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/01/201212614551208744.html http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/01/2012126145... The evidence is absolutely crushing. The statement of the OP is not misleading at all - it is completely accurate.

chucktingle 5y ago

Fully agree. To add to the list of "religious" mischief the CIA is involved with, let's take a look at the Tibetan situation and the current Dalai Lama: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program

perl4ever 5y ago

>Daily reminder Indeed.