5 ms·

Seems odd to talk about the early and pre-CIA (OSS) without mentioning one its most influential academic writers who is on almost every university syllabus toda

Seems odd to talk about the early and pre-CIA (OSS) without mentioning one its most influential academic writers who is on almost every university syllabus today, and whose work essentially founded the movements that produced everything from Alinsky to intersectionality by studying and adapting the soviet and other european methods, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Marcuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Marcuse Trumpism was a reaction to perceived cultural nihilism, which the CIA has earned popular credit for producing in its role as the O.G. american "deep state." Catholicism has always been state religion, so the base rate of anyone in govt being Catholic was already pretty high in those earlier years and I'd probably not attribute much to it. If you wanted to look at peculiar religious influence on the U.S. intelligence community, I've been told by other contractors that Mormonism has an unusual representation cluster though. However, the interesting bit of Catholicism that lends itself to an organization like the CIA would be the Jesuits, who have been the butt of conspiracy theories since their founding, but also run an old network of elite schools and are considered the Vatican brain trust.

LogonType10 5y ago
>However, the interesting bit of Catholicism that lends itself to an organization like the CIA would be the Jesuits, who have been the butt of conspiracy theories since their founding, but also run an old network of elite schools and are considered the Vatican brain trust. Do you have any evidence to back that up?
- TheMonarchist 5y ago
  I'm not quite sure what exactly you want backed up (nor did I write that), but from the top of my head https://www.chick.com/information/article-listing?subject=catholicism https://www.chick.com/information/article-listing?subject=ca... might answer your question to some extent.
  - ginko 5y ago
    You seriously link chick.com, from the author of Chick Tracts[1] as an authoritative source on Catholicism? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_tract https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_tract
    - boffinAudio 5y ago
      Chick Tracts are quite literally Christian propaganda. Why wouldn't they be relevant in a discussion involving persecution of other Christian groups?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - krige 5y ago
        I wager Christianity does not subscribe to Chick's ideas in any real, broad or specific, sense.
        boffinAudio 5y ago
        No true Scotsman would argue with you that Chick Christians are full of bad ideas that other Christians would find repugnant.
    - TheMonarchist 5y ago
      You seriously link wikipedia, that simply sides with the numbers of those angered by Chick attempting to convert some of their own, as an authoritative source on Chick Tracts? To answer your question, obviously the ultimate authority on Popery would be Popes themselves. That link serves as a quick refresher on a) why Jesuits are the butt of so many conspiracy theories b) why they are "the interesting bit of Catholicism", for most content there is somehow related to them. Albeit one could also argue that clearly they aren't the only interesting bit, for all of it isn't related to them. Edit: There's actually a category dedicated to Jesuits, but it has surprisingly few articles, presumably because they decided to give Alberto Rivera his own category. So multiple categories treat them nevertheless.
tptacek 5y ago
The Jesuits were the targets of the CIA during the Cold War; they're the ones the death squads went after, for preaching liberation. I don't know what Alinsky or "intersectionality" has to do with any of this. You didn't need the Soviets, or Marcuse, to get Alinsky's Back of the Yards Neighborhood Council, which predates not just the CIA but the OSS.
jacquesm 5y ago
> Trumpism was a reaction to perceived cultural nihilism This is extremely funny.
- motohagiography 5y ago
  It could be, but it really depends on what level of meta one is laughing at. If nothing else, he was defined by fixed, persistent, and permanent beliefs in direct reaction to progress and that's what supporters followed. There are some other comments on this thread that go into the weeds, but the essential point I was making was that the article missed the opportunity to provide a key insight about the cultural influence of the CIA by choosing to focus on rightist bugbears like Bannon instead of the one guy who planted the seeds of subversion in the minds of every campus activist of the last 50 years. I'm saying the virus that that escaped from a weapons lab and derailed western civilization wasn't covid, it was Marcuse.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    You could very well be right. But just like every other kind of control mechanism it is easier in the present to focus on the visible symptoms than on the root cause, and some individuals are a bit of both. Bannon and Stone serve(d) as lightning rods but there were a lot more people active than just those two though much less visible. The OSS and later the CIA did more damage to the world through their meddling than we will be able to fix in several generations, and it isn't over yet. I'm not quite clear on whether they really believed their motivations were pure or if they were just very cynical in the way they went about their business. They have set the stage for confrontations for many years to come, and that's the world over, not just in the United States. The problem is that the world now needs a stable United States, one that is able to project power across the globe in a predictable and efficient manner. You can't have a policeman on the block for years and then suddenly have them abscond and leave a power vacuum. Such changes should be made gradual, not suddenly or chaos will ensue, there are a multitude of wanna-be dictators waiting in the wings to take over should the United States stumble or fall. And I wished I would be confident that they would not fall but right now looking out across the next 25 years or so I would not put better than even money on that not happening, way too many things that should not have happened have already happened.

LogonType10 5y ago

>However, the interesting bit of Catholicism that lends itself to an organization like the CIA would be the Jesuits, who have been the butt of conspiracy theories since their founding, but also run an old network of elite schools and are considered the Vatican brain trust. Do you have any evidence to back that up?

TheMonarchist 5y ago
I'm not quite sure what exactly you want backed up (nor did I write that), but from the top of my head https://www.chick.com/information/article-listing?subject=catholicism https://www.chick.com/information/article-listing?subject=ca... might answer your question to some extent.
- ginko 5y ago
  You seriously link chick.com, from the author of Chick Tracts[1] as an authoritative source on Catholicism? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_tract https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_tract
  - boffinAudio 5y ago
    Chick Tracts are quite literally Christian propaganda. Why wouldn't they be relevant in a discussion involving persecution of other Christian groups?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - krige 5y ago
      I wager Christianity does not subscribe to Chick's ideas in any real, broad or specific, sense.
      - boffinAudio 5y ago
        No true Scotsman would argue with you that Chick Christians are full of bad ideas that other Christians would find repugnant.
  - TheMonarchist 5y ago
    You seriously link wikipedia, that simply sides with the numbers of those angered by Chick attempting to convert some of their own, as an authoritative source on Chick Tracts? To answer your question, obviously the ultimate authority on Popery would be Popes themselves. That link serves as a quick refresher on a) why Jesuits are the butt of so many conspiracy theories b) why they are "the interesting bit of Catholicism", for most content there is somehow related to them. Albeit one could also argue that clearly they aren't the only interesting bit, for all of it isn't related to them. Edit: There's actually a category dedicated to Jesuits, but it has surprisingly few articles, presumably because they decided to give Alberto Rivera his own category. So multiple categories treat them nevertheless.

tptacek 5y ago

The Jesuits were the targets of the CIA during the Cold War; they're the ones the death squads went after, for preaching liberation. I don't know what Alinsky or "intersectionality" has to do with any of this. You didn't need the Soviets, or Marcuse, to get Alinsky's Back of the Yards Neighborhood Council, which predates not just the CIA but the OSS.

jacquesm 5y ago

> Trumpism was a reaction to perceived cultural nihilism This is extremely funny.

motohagiography 5y ago
It could be, but it really depends on what level of meta one is laughing at. If nothing else, he was defined by fixed, persistent, and permanent beliefs in direct reaction to progress and that's what supporters followed. There are some other comments on this thread that go into the weeds, but the essential point I was making was that the article missed the opportunity to provide a key insight about the cultural influence of the CIA by choosing to focus on rightist bugbears like Bannon instead of the one guy who planted the seeds of subversion in the minds of every campus activist of the last 50 years. I'm saying the virus that that escaped from a weapons lab and derailed western civilization wasn't covid, it was Marcuse.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  You could very well be right. But just like every other kind of control mechanism it is easier in the present to focus on the visible symptoms than on the root cause, and some individuals are a bit of both. Bannon and Stone serve(d) as lightning rods but there were a lot more people active than just those two though much less visible. The OSS and later the CIA did more damage to the world through their meddling than we will be able to fix in several generations, and it isn't over yet. I'm not quite clear on whether they really believed their motivations were pure or if they were just very cynical in the way they went about their business. They have set the stage for confrontations for many years to come, and that's the world over, not just in the United States. The problem is that the world now needs a stable United States, one that is able to project power across the globe in a predictable and efficient manner. You can't have a policeman on the block for years and then suddenly have them abscond and leave a power vacuum. Such changes should be made gradual, not suddenly or chaos will ensue, there are a multitude of wanna-be dictators waiting in the wings to take over should the United States stumble or fall. And I wished I would be confident that they would not fall but right now looking out across the next 25 years or so I would not put better than even money on that not happening, way too many things that should not have happened have already happened.