5 ms·

This is also an emulator. Interlisp uses an emulator written in C and output goes to X11. Open Genera and Portable Genera use an emulator written in assembler

by lispm 5y ago

This is also an emulator. Interlisp uses an emulator written in C and output goes to X11. Open Genera and Portable Genera use an emulator written in assembler (running on DEC Alpha, X86-64 and ARM64 - for the CPU emulation) and output goes to X11.

LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
As far as I understood it, at first people used the Tru64 emulated Open Genera under Alpha emulation running on some older Ubuntu running on X86-64. That was years ago. Maybe that got some refinements. Is the portable Genera directly retargeted to X86-64 now? And does it matter if it's practically unavailable? edit: OFC i know Interlisp-D/Medley is also an emulation. But directly retargeted, and legally open source. And not 'production ready', for now. But seems to be only a matter of time.
- lispm 5y ago
  > at first people used used the Tru64 emulated Open Genera People I know used it on original DEC Alphas and on Alpha emulators running under Windows. The new version, called Portable Genera, has three assembler Ivory emulator versions: DEC Alpha, Intel x86-64 and ARM64. > And does it matter if it's practically unavailable? There are a few users.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
    Good for them. Uninteresting for the rest of us, if it's unavailable.
    - lispm 5y ago
      Depends who that 'us' is. If 'us' is a typical Lisp user, then I doubt that any of the older systems is actually 'interesting' beyond software archeology. I think this 'us' better uses something like SBCL (+ whatever), instead of the old systems, available or not. Or Racket, CLojure, or whatever new language has enough mindshare to create an eco-system.
      - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
        While that is a pragmatic point of view I can perfectly understand, this doesn't satisfy the urge to bask in the nimbus of the 'awesome integration', and thereby the gained power & speed of doing whatever ones whims compel one to dabble within such environments. Without having to break the bank, or being otherwise artificially constrained. Yes? ;-)
        lispm 5y ago
        Just making sure to innocent readers here: the stuff is really old and it shows. The software was developed, designed and grown in another time. Understanding the 'awesome integration' or the 'power & speed' isn't easy. One can look at that stuff for a long time and still have no idea why these features are there, how to use them in actual programming and how they were hacked into the big pile of mud one has just downloaded from the Internet. The Lisp software was designed for customers with deep pockets to get development & maintenance done. Once the money went away, this stuff died. Some early and some slightly later. It's like finding another old Egyptian pyramid and thinking 'let's clean it and use it again'. Unfortunately the builders and original users are mostly no longer there.
        LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
        So, on a scale of 1 to 5, where would you put it compared to open/portable Genera regarding 1.) (potential) portability, speed 2.) amount of delivered/contained applications 3.) look&feel/usability 4.) access to full source 5.) price (ignoring time) edit: or use %, 1 to 10, whatever you like
        lispm 5y ago
        To make sure what my point was: any old Lisp Machine software is largely outdated. The MIT Lispm software is BSD. http://www.heeltoe.com/retro/mit/mit_cadr_lmss.html http://www.heeltoe.com/retro/mit/mit_cadr_lmss.html It's very old (>40 years) , had never more than a low hundred users. Dead for decades. No Common Lisp. No TCP/IP. LMI Lispm Software: old, license unclear. TI Lispm software: leaked, uncomplete, no license. Symbolics Lispm software: partly leaked, no license, owner exists, commercially available. Has a Common Lisp implementation. Best Lispm software. Most development stopped mid 90s. Some updates in the last years, due to a new emulator. Emulator was a commercial product. Interlisp/Medley: open sourced after a long time being not available. A Common Lisp version which very few people ever used. Emulator was a commercial product. The software is largely written in Interlisp, a Lisp dialect which has been mostly dead for 35 years with almost no users, no libraries, ... All of these have some very cool technology, but much of it is between 50 and 30 years old. It's not the Lisp for the 'rest of us', it's for hobby software archeologists, for the few people who have capabilities to update them and for the <100 actual users/developers using them for work.

by lispm 5y ago

LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago

As far as I understood it, at first people used the Tru64 emulated Open Genera under Alpha emulation running on some older Ubuntu running on X86-64. That was years ago. Maybe that got some refinements. Is the portable Genera directly retargeted to X86-64 now? And does it matter if it's practically unavailable? edit: OFC i know Interlisp-D/Medley is also an emulation. But directly retargeted, and legally open source. And not 'production ready', for now. But seems to be only a matter of time.

lispm 5y ago
> at first people used used the Tru64 emulated Open Genera People I know used it on original DEC Alphas and on Alpha emulators running under Windows. The new version, called Portable Genera, has three assembler Ivory emulator versions: DEC Alpha, Intel x86-64 and ARM64. > And does it matter if it's practically unavailable? There are a few users.
- LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
  Good for them. Uninteresting for the rest of us, if it's unavailable.
  - lispm 5y ago
    Depends who that 'us' is. If 'us' is a typical Lisp user, then I doubt that any of the older systems is actually 'interesting' beyond software archeology. I think this 'us' better uses something like SBCL (+ whatever), instead of the old systems, available or not. Or Racket, CLojure, or whatever new language has enough mindshare to create an eco-system.
    - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
      While that is a pragmatic point of view I can perfectly understand, this doesn't satisfy the urge to bask in the nimbus of the 'awesome integration', and thereby the gained power & speed of doing whatever ones whims compel one to dabble within such environments. Without having to break the bank, or being otherwise artificially constrained. Yes? ;-)
      - lispm 5y ago
        Just making sure to innocent readers here: the stuff is really old and it shows. The software was developed, designed and grown in another time. Understanding the 'awesome integration' or the 'power & speed' isn't easy. One can look at that stuff for a long time and still have no idea why these features are there, how to use them in actual programming and how they were hacked into the big pile of mud one has just downloaded from the Internet. The Lisp software was designed for customers with deep pockets to get development & maintenance done. Once the money went away, this stuff died. Some early and some slightly later. It's like finding another old Egyptian pyramid and thinking 'let's clean it and use it again'. Unfortunately the builders and original users are mostly no longer there.
        LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
        So, on a scale of 1 to 5, where would you put it compared to open/portable Genera regarding 1.) (potential) portability, speed 2.) amount of delivered/contained applications 3.) look&feel/usability 4.) access to full source 5.) price (ignoring time) edit: or use %, 1 to 10, whatever you like
        lispm 5y ago
        To make sure what my point was: any old Lisp Machine software is largely outdated. The MIT Lispm software is BSD. http://www.heeltoe.com/retro/mit/mit_cadr_lmss.html http://www.heeltoe.com/retro/mit/mit_cadr_lmss.html It's very old (>40 years) , had never more than a low hundred users. Dead for decades. No Common Lisp. No TCP/IP. LMI Lispm Software: old, license unclear. TI Lispm software: leaked, uncomplete, no license. Symbolics Lispm software: partly leaked, no license, owner exists, commercially available. Has a Common Lisp implementation. Best Lispm software. Most development stopped mid 90s. Some updates in the last years, due to a new emulator. Emulator was a commercial product. Interlisp/Medley: open sourced after a long time being not available. A Common Lisp version which very few people ever used. Emulator was a commercial product. The software is largely written in Interlisp, a Lisp dialect which has been mostly dead for 35 years with almost no users, no libraries, ... All of these have some very cool technology, but much of it is between 50 and 30 years old. It's not the Lisp for the 'rest of us', it's for hobby software archeologists, for the few people who have capabilities to update them and for the <100 actual users/developers using them for work.