4 ms·

But on the flip side of this, you don't know your internal workings better than they do. Just because you live in your body doesn't mean you know how it works.

by bena 5y ago

But on the flip side of this, you don't know your internal workings better than they do. Just because you live in your body doesn't mean you know how it works. I drive a Civic, it doesn't make me a mechanic. Diagnosis is tricky. Especially in a system as complicated and interconnected as the human body. People often have a bad tendency to misattribute effects to recent events. And let's say your conjecture of why they dismiss you is true. That it's because everyone else is an idiot and they're not accustomed to dealing with the brilliance that is you. Everyone thinks like that. Everyone thinks they're the bright shining star who knows medicine better than the doctor. You were not the first person and you won't be the last who walks in with reams of printed out papers on the very thing they're sure is the problem. They have no way of knowing if you actually know what you're talking about unless they put in the work of figuring out what's up with you. So yes, you could be right, but you could also be wrong. And the work is the same either way.

rajin444 5y ago
> and the work is the same either way I think I that’s the issue. Not all doctors are the same. I’ve been to many that just gave me a surface level amount of thought and sent me on my way. I’ve been to others that took time to really dig in and try to solve the problems. People resort to self research because (for whatever reason, some valid) too many doctors are the former. Operating in a system where regression to the mean is so prevalent rewards doing the bare minimum with the added benefit of generally reducing your liability.
mistermann 5y ago
> Everyone thinks like that. Everyone thinks they're the bright shining star who knows medicine better than the doctor. This seems more truthy than True.
- bena 5y ago
  It may be an exaggeration for effect, but in any walk-in clinic, you're going to get at least one of those a day.
  - mistermann 5y ago
    "at least one of those a day" sounds like a vast minority rather than "everyone" though doesn't it?
    - bena 5y ago
      That's why we call it an exaggeration for effect.
      - mistermann 5y ago
        At the time you said it, didn't you believe it to be actually true? I mean, there is a fair amount of truth to it in my experience.
        bena 5y ago
        I think there was a fair enough number of people who act that way that I didn't think the exaggeration would require this level of explanation.
        mistermann 5y ago
        I am directly challenging the notion that you considered it an exaggeration at the time you wrote the comment. Considering you were criticizing the judgment of others in the comment, it seems a bit rich to play off examination of yours as somehow unfair or weird. Cognition is often a group activity (comments on social media have effects upon the beliefs of others), and some of us actually take that very real phenomenon seriously.
        bena 5y ago
        Then you are simply wrong.
        mistermann 5y ago
RobertRoberts 5y ago
An old guy once told me how veterinarians were often better doctors than medical doctors because their patients couldn't confuse the diagnosis with bad input. But, I've also met simply belligerent doctors before, that simply couldn't be wrong no matter what the evidence said... There's human error on both sides to take into account.
- bena 5y ago
  Which is really my point here. The person I responded to is laying the fault completely with doctors. But doctors see patients like him all the time. And they're often wrong. The cases where they're not wrong is survivorship bias at work. It makes "patient knows better than doctor" feel more common than it is.
  - RobertRoberts 5y ago
    But if you are the kind of person very conscience of your health (or lack of it) and know very, very well what is going on. Your experience will be "most doctors ignore my (the patient) input". So it's easy to see how skewed this can get based on perspective. I have been told once by a doctor that he flatly refused to see me anymore if I didn't do exactly what he said, but he was just wrong.
InfiniteRand 5y ago
I’m not sure if the work is the same either way (I feel ambivalent on this question). If you know that no diagnosis is possible you have to simply alleviate the symptoms as best is possible (I wish therapy was thought more of in this way, maybe it’s not all in your head but we can’t figure it out so let’s help you deal with it), if there is a possible silver bullet you need to keep chasing that even if that chasing increases the symptoms. But thinking this over that’s a false dichotomy, even if your doctors have exhausted their theories it doesn’t mean that some other doctor might not have an idea or there’s some variation on one of the existing theories that might explain things. Likewise, even if an exact diagnosis is found, few treatments are 100% effective in all cases, and most diagnosis have special cases which complicate things in sometimes baffling ways. Realistically, people usually need to both address symptoms directly and seek underlying causes to some degree when dealing with illness. That exact degree depends on the exact situation but it’s typically not 0% in either case. I would add something else, ultimately, especially with vague complicated symptoms which occur both in firmly physiological and firmly psychological disorders, the primary goal is typically to return function to ones life. Whether or not the mechanism to do so is real or not is of secondary importance especially if it doesn’t cause much harm relative to its benefit (which is not a simple matter to evaluate in cases like long term antibiotics for chronic pain, but I think is easier to evaluate for things like exercise (it might not cure the underlying cause, but it is likely to be indirectly helpful and unlikely to harmful so…))
thegrasshopper2 5y ago
True, but you know which noises are normal for your Civic much better than your new mechanic (or even your old one). If you know there's a new sound, your mechanic has to take that as truth and find the (a) problem. Works the same for a body. Incidentally this problem is what is stopping me from going to a doctor right now. I'm having headaches recently which are not normal for me, but are still in the realm of "normal". I'm putting off a visit to the doctor because I'm afraid they'll say it's normal. It is not, for me. Also, always search a second opinion. I wouldn't be born if my parents went for the "absolute truth" of the doctor they had at the time.

by bena 5y ago

rajin444 5y ago

> and the work is the same either way I think I that’s the issue. Not all doctors are the same. I’ve been to many that just gave me a surface level amount of thought and sent me on my way. I’ve been to others that took time to really dig in and try to solve the problems. People resort to self research because (for whatever reason, some valid) too many doctors are the former. Operating in a system where regression to the mean is so prevalent rewards doing the bare minimum with the added benefit of generally reducing your liability.

mistermann 5y ago

> Everyone thinks like that. Everyone thinks they're the bright shining star who knows medicine better than the doctor. This seems more truthy than True.

bena 5y ago
It may be an exaggeration for effect, but in any walk-in clinic, you're going to get at least one of those a day.
- mistermann 5y ago
  "at least one of those a day" sounds like a vast minority rather than "everyone" though doesn't it?
  - bena 5y ago
    That's why we call it an exaggeration for effect.
    - mistermann 5y ago
      At the time you said it, didn't you believe it to be actually true? I mean, there is a fair amount of truth to it in my experience.
      - bena 5y ago
        I think there was a fair enough number of people who act that way that I didn't think the exaggeration would require this level of explanation.
        mistermann 5y ago
        I am directly challenging the notion that you considered it an exaggeration at the time you wrote the comment. Considering you were criticizing the judgment of others in the comment, it seems a bit rich to play off examination of yours as somehow unfair or weird. Cognition is often a group activity (comments on social media have effects upon the beliefs of others), and some of us actually take that very real phenomenon seriously.
        bena 5y ago
        Then you are simply wrong.
        mistermann 5y ago

RobertRoberts 5y ago

An old guy once told me how veterinarians were often better doctors than medical doctors because their patients couldn't confuse the diagnosis with bad input. But, I've also met simply belligerent doctors before, that simply couldn't be wrong no matter what the evidence said... There's human error on both sides to take into account.

bena 5y ago
Which is really my point here. The person I responded to is laying the fault completely with doctors. But doctors see patients like him all the time. And they're often wrong. The cases where they're not wrong is survivorship bias at work. It makes "patient knows better than doctor" feel more common than it is.
- RobertRoberts 5y ago
  But if you are the kind of person very conscience of your health (or lack of it) and know very, very well what is going on. Your experience will be "most doctors ignore my (the patient) input". So it's easy to see how skewed this can get based on perspective. I have been told once by a doctor that he flatly refused to see me anymore if I didn't do exactly what he said, but he was just wrong.

InfiniteRand 5y ago

I’m not sure if the work is the same either way (I feel ambivalent on this question). If you know that no diagnosis is possible you have to simply alleviate the symptoms as best is possible (I wish therapy was thought more of in this way, maybe it’s not all in your head but we can’t figure it out so let’s help you deal with it), if there is a possible silver bullet you need to keep chasing that even if that chasing increases the symptoms. But thinking this over that’s a false dichotomy, even if your doctors have exhausted their theories it doesn’t mean that some other doctor might not have an idea or there’s some variation on one of the existing theories that might explain things. Likewise, even if an exact diagnosis is found, few treatments are 100% effective in all cases, and most diagnosis have special cases which complicate things in sometimes baffling ways. Realistically, people usually need to both address symptoms directly and seek underlying causes to some degree when dealing with illness. That exact degree depends on the exact situation but it’s typically not 0% in either case. I would add something else, ultimately, especially with vague complicated symptoms which occur both in firmly physiological and firmly psychological disorders, the primary goal is typically to return function to ones life. Whether or not the mechanism to do so is real or not is of secondary importance especially if it doesn’t cause much harm relative to its benefit (which is not a simple matter to evaluate in cases like long term antibiotics for chronic pain, but I think is easier to evaluate for things like exercise (it might not cure the underlying cause, but it is likely to be indirectly helpful and unlikely to harmful so…))

thegrasshopper2 5y ago

True, but you know which noises are normal for your Civic much better than your new mechanic (or even your old one). If you know there's a new sound, your mechanic has to take that as truth and find the (a) problem. Works the same for a body. Incidentally this problem is what is stopping me from going to a doctor right now. I'm having headaches recently which are not normal for me, but are still in the realm of "normal". I'm putting off a visit to the doctor because I'm afraid they'll say it's normal. It is not, for me. Also, always search a second opinion. I wouldn't be born if my parents went for the "absolute truth" of the doctor they had at the time.