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Well, it is called corruption. Not by every paper every time, but it is. The implied point the author of the piece is trying to make is an equivocation of Briti

Well, it is called corruption. Not by every paper every time, but it is. The implied point the author of the piece is trying to make is an equivocation of British corruption with African corruption (whatever that means, Africa is 3x the size of all of Europe!) which is of course nonsense. Anyone who has spent a fair bit of time travelling and living in other countries knows that this[0] index is essentially correct. I know it is for the countries I've been to and I've been to quite a few. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

boomboomsubban 5y ago
That index measures the perceived corruption, and would be subject to the same bias the article discusses. Even when the British government gives away $24 billion dollars to people recommended by MPs and government officials, that isn't perceived as "corruption" in the same way.
- crazydoggers 5y ago
  > That index measures the perceived corruption, and would be subject to the same bias the article discusses. Not sure on what grounds you make that statement. Just actually reading the Wikipedia article: “as determined by expert assessments and opinion surveys” And “A study published in 2012 found a ‘very strong significant correlation’ between the Corruption Perceptions Index and two other proxies for corruption: black market activity and an overabundance of regulation. All three metrics also had a highly significant correlation with real gross domestic product per capita” And not saying there’s not corruption in UK or other western nations, but the aljazeera piece comes across like propaganda without much in the way of concrete data.
  - pydry 5y ago
    Black market activity is by definition hidden, so how did they measure it accurately? And since when did lots of regulations === corruption? What even counts as "an overabundance"? There's not even a clearly defined measure of regulatory abundance, let alone over. This study sounds fishy as hell.
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    >Not sure on what grounds you make that statement. It's called the "Corruption Perceptions Index," or the index of perceived corruption. It's purely based on the opinion of people about the corruption in countries. The correlation to the black market and overregulation further demonstrates my point, the British corruption I discussed needed no black market and was enabled by a complete lack of regulation. None of those three measurements would consider clear corruption to be corruption.
    - crazydoggers 5y ago
      > It's purely based on the opinion of people about the corruption in countries. I love when people don’t actually read the Wikipedia article: “performance assessments from a group of analysts. Early CPIs used public opinion surveys. The institutions are:[ African Development Bank (based in Côte d'Ivoire) Bertelsmann Foundation (based in Germany) Economist Intelligence Unit (based in the UK) Freedom House (based in the US) Global Insight (based in US) International Institute for Management Development (based in Switzerland) Political and Economic Risk Consultancy (based in Hong Kong) The PRS Group, Inc., (based in the US) World Economic Forum World Bank” > It's correlation to the black market and overregulation further demonstrates my point, the British corruption I discussed needed no black market and was enabled by a complete lack of regulation. This makes no sense. Black markets are fostered by corruption. That’s why they exists. The fact that western countries have less black market activity points to less corruption not more.
      - boomboomsubban 5y ago
        I did read your Wikipedia article. A performance assessment is a fancy term for an opinion unless they detail their methodology with evidence. >The fact that western countries have less black market activity points to less corruption not more. Western corruption needs no black market, that $24 billion dollars awarded to friends of MPs and government officials can be deposited in banks and spent in stores like any other money. edit From the wiki article. >The CPI measures perception of corruption due to the difficulty of measuring absolute levels of corruption.
scottlamb 5y ago
That perception probably matches direct experience in terms of where a normal person might be asked for a bribe while going about their normal day. I don't think it matches the big stuff that politicians do. In the US, politicians have "speaking fees", and regulators use the "revolving door" between the public and private sector. Are those bribes, too? I think often so, despite the green color.
yunohn 5y ago
> Anyone who has spent a fair bit of time travelling and living in other countries knows that this[0] index is essentially correct. Coincidentally, I’ve travelled a lot and lived in the USA, EU, and Asia. But I actually disagree. Most Western citizens believe that there’s no corruption in their countries, while the reality is that it’s just less visible. In most developing countries, even the lowest levels of government get an opportunity to take a cut, but in developed countries, this is reserved for the upper levels. The amounts of money involved are still quite massive - and as most SV residents note on this site often, everything is riddled with inefficiency and favoritism with lots of corruption.
- crazydoggers 5y ago
  > Most Western citizens believe that there’s no corruption in their countries, while the reality is that it’s just less visible. That’s just completely untrue. I don’t know what people you talk to, but here in the US I can guarantee 90% of Thanksgiving dinner conversation is going to revolve around someone complaining about the corrupt politicians.
- jeltz 5y ago
  Not even Swedes believe our country has no corruption. For example Nya Karolinska was a recent huge corruption scandal which people still talk about.
- 3pt14159 5y ago
  If you're speaking about the USA then I'm not really sure we disagree as much as you think. I'm from Canada and have observed that Americans suffer from more political corruption than Canadians. I didn't say there was no corruption, I just said that it correlated with the map. Did Donald Trump leave office with a helicopter full of money? No. Did he grift as much as he could along side plenty of other grifters from politicians to lobbyists, absolutely. But in percent of GDP terms, the USA is still leagues ahead of places like Afghanistan or most countries of Central Africa. Even Vietnam and Ukraine had much higher corruption than the USA, in my experience, and I'm friends with some interesting people like military contractors and business owners, accountants for Gazprom, etc.
joenot443 5y ago
It's borderline comical for Al Jazeera to act as if corruption in the UK is even in the same ballpark as the corruption which plagues most African states. Seriously, anyone who reads this article should also spend some time reading about Robert Mugabe or similar warlord frauds before pointing fingers at the likes of Boris Johnson.

boomboomsubban 5y ago

That index measures the perceived corruption, and would be subject to the same bias the article discusses. Even when the British government gives away $24 billion dollars to people recommended by MPs and government officials, that isn't perceived as "corruption" in the same way.

crazydoggers 5y ago
> That index measures the perceived corruption, and would be subject to the same bias the article discusses. Not sure on what grounds you make that statement. Just actually reading the Wikipedia article: “as determined by expert assessments and opinion surveys” And “A study published in 2012 found a ‘very strong significant correlation’ between the Corruption Perceptions Index and two other proxies for corruption: black market activity and an overabundance of regulation. All three metrics also had a highly significant correlation with real gross domestic product per capita” And not saying there’s not corruption in UK or other western nations, but the aljazeera piece comes across like propaganda without much in the way of concrete data.
- pydry 5y ago
  Black market activity is by definition hidden, so how did they measure it accurately? And since when did lots of regulations === corruption? What even counts as "an overabundance"? There's not even a clearly defined measure of regulatory abundance, let alone over. This study sounds fishy as hell.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  >Not sure on what grounds you make that statement. It's called the "Corruption Perceptions Index," or the index of perceived corruption. It's purely based on the opinion of people about the corruption in countries. The correlation to the black market and overregulation further demonstrates my point, the British corruption I discussed needed no black market and was enabled by a complete lack of regulation. None of those three measurements would consider clear corruption to be corruption.
  - crazydoggers 5y ago
    > It's purely based on the opinion of people about the corruption in countries. I love when people don’t actually read the Wikipedia article: “performance assessments from a group of analysts. Early CPIs used public opinion surveys. The institutions are:[ African Development Bank (based in Côte d'Ivoire) Bertelsmann Foundation (based in Germany) Economist Intelligence Unit (based in the UK) Freedom House (based in the US) Global Insight (based in US) International Institute for Management Development (based in Switzerland) Political and Economic Risk Consultancy (based in Hong Kong) The PRS Group, Inc., (based in the US) World Economic Forum World Bank” > It's correlation to the black market and overregulation further demonstrates my point, the British corruption I discussed needed no black market and was enabled by a complete lack of regulation. This makes no sense. Black markets are fostered by corruption. That’s why they exists. The fact that western countries have less black market activity points to less corruption not more.
    - boomboomsubban 5y ago
      I did read your Wikipedia article. A performance assessment is a fancy term for an opinion unless they detail their methodology with evidence. >The fact that western countries have less black market activity points to less corruption not more. Western corruption needs no black market, that $24 billion dollars awarded to friends of MPs and government officials can be deposited in banks and spent in stores like any other money. edit From the wiki article. >The CPI measures perception of corruption due to the difficulty of measuring absolute levels of corruption.

scottlamb 5y ago

That perception probably matches direct experience in terms of where a normal person might be asked for a bribe while going about their normal day. I don't think it matches the big stuff that politicians do. In the US, politicians have "speaking fees", and regulators use the "revolving door" between the public and private sector. Are those bribes, too? I think often so, despite the green color.

yunohn 5y ago

> Anyone who has spent a fair bit of time travelling and living in other countries knows that this[0] index is essentially correct. Coincidentally, I’ve travelled a lot and lived in the USA, EU, and Asia. But I actually disagree. Most Western citizens believe that there’s no corruption in their countries, while the reality is that it’s just less visible. In most developing countries, even the lowest levels of government get an opportunity to take a cut, but in developed countries, this is reserved for the upper levels. The amounts of money involved are still quite massive - and as most SV residents note on this site often, everything is riddled with inefficiency and favoritism with lots of corruption.

crazydoggers 5y ago
> Most Western citizens believe that there’s no corruption in their countries, while the reality is that it’s just less visible. That’s just completely untrue. I don’t know what people you talk to, but here in the US I can guarantee 90% of Thanksgiving dinner conversation is going to revolve around someone complaining about the corrupt politicians.
jeltz 5y ago
Not even Swedes believe our country has no corruption. For example Nya Karolinska was a recent huge corruption scandal which people still talk about.
3pt14159 5y ago
If you're speaking about the USA then I'm not really sure we disagree as much as you think. I'm from Canada and have observed that Americans suffer from more political corruption than Canadians. I didn't say there was no corruption, I just said that it correlated with the map. Did Donald Trump leave office with a helicopter full of money? No. Did he grift as much as he could along side plenty of other grifters from politicians to lobbyists, absolutely. But in percent of GDP terms, the USA is still leagues ahead of places like Afghanistan or most countries of Central Africa. Even Vietnam and Ukraine had much higher corruption than the USA, in my experience, and I'm friends with some interesting people like military contractors and business owners, accountants for Gazprom, etc.

joenot443 5y ago

It's borderline comical for Al Jazeera to act as if corruption in the UK is even in the same ballpark as the corruption which plagues most African states. Seriously, anyone who reads this article should also spend some time reading about Robert Mugabe or similar warlord frauds before pointing fingers at the likes of Boris Johnson.