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Does it, really? At least one uptime Union and its members play a big role, but I don't remember much about unionization efforts and major strikes. Nothing clos

Does it, really? At least one uptime Union and its members play a big role, but I don't remember much about unionization efforts and major strikes. Nothing close to what happened in the industrialization age in Europe. Partly that is because some of the political gains from those efforts have already been leapfrogged downtime. My point is more around the entrepreneurship and how easy it is for the Americans (and sometimes downtimers) to make a fortune. Also how easy it is to retool whole industries and economies in a short time-frame. But hey, it's fiction...

ghaff 5y ago
>retool whole industries and economies in a short time-frame It's a general pattern with this type of book. They're probably way too optimistic about what you could accomplish in the absence of refined raw materials, tools, etc. even if you had a lot of the basic knowledge in some form. Even if you weren't thrown in prison as a wizard or crazy person, making even WWI-level weaponry or antibiotics in a world without even the concept of standardized manufacturing processes would be challenging to put it mildly.
- rmah 5y ago
  IMO this book does a rather good job of that. And the problems you describe is an ongoing theme throughout the series. For example, they learn that they cannot even make WW1 level weapons (they settle on a sort of hybrid civil-war era rifles + flintlocks for mass production because of problems making percussion caps, IIRC). And they learn quickly that they can't make antibiotics at more than small lot lab amounts. A lot of their retooling is cannibalizing parts from existing equipment for different uses.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    It's been a long time since I read that particular book. It was more of a general comment about how it often seems in these sorts of books that one smart person with some instructions can basically advance technology by hundreds of years in a month or so.
    - rmah 5y ago
      Understood. But that doesn't happen in 1632.
      - LanceH 5y ago
        Not saying they got all tech decisions right, but they did handle it by falling back many steps, using current knowledge to build crude antique tech. They had more concern with bootstrapping than jumping straight to launching satellites. They were also concerned with the scarcity and value of rather mundane things in our lives today, like rubber tires, plastic bottles, etc... Some low hanging advances like clean sheets and washing your hand among doctors.
    - eru 5y ago
      That's exactly why the author sends back a whole small town (with libraries etc), instead of just a single smart person.
lstodd 5y ago
> Does it, really? It does, with G. Ritchter and CoCs.
- bayesian_horse 5y ago
  They aren't a traditional Union. They aren't organized around professions or industries. They are fighting against anti-semites, nobility, for occasional odd causes (sanitation). Unions are more of a labor vs capital thing, banding together for more bargaining power. In the 1632 series this isn't a big issue yet because most people aren't working for employers with many employees, so the power imbalance isn't yet as bad. Also the ring of fire "back-ported" some labor rights legislation.
  - spiralx 5y ago
    The CoCs are to guilds as unions are to factories in my opinion - they both are for workers' rights but operate within different power structures.
spiralx 5y ago
Eric Flint specifically talks about his long-term support for unions in one of the prefaces (I think) of the early books in the series, quite likely 1632 itself. He's worked in a union as a longshoreman, truck driver, auto worker, steelworker, meatpacker, glassblower and a machinist and was a labour union organiser.
eru 5y ago
The hero of the first book is a union man.

ghaff 5y ago

>retool whole industries and economies in a short time-frame It's a general pattern with this type of book. They're probably way too optimistic about what you could accomplish in the absence of refined raw materials, tools, etc. even if you had a lot of the basic knowledge in some form. Even if you weren't thrown in prison as a wizard or crazy person, making even WWI-level weaponry or antibiotics in a world without even the concept of standardized manufacturing processes would be challenging to put it mildly.

rmah 5y ago
IMO this book does a rather good job of that. And the problems you describe is an ongoing theme throughout the series. For example, they learn that they cannot even make WW1 level weapons (they settle on a sort of hybrid civil-war era rifles + flintlocks for mass production because of problems making percussion caps, IIRC). And they learn quickly that they can't make antibiotics at more than small lot lab amounts. A lot of their retooling is cannibalizing parts from existing equipment for different uses.
- ghaff 5y ago
  It's been a long time since I read that particular book. It was more of a general comment about how it often seems in these sorts of books that one smart person with some instructions can basically advance technology by hundreds of years in a month or so.
  - rmah 5y ago
    Understood. But that doesn't happen in 1632.
    - LanceH 5y ago
      Not saying they got all tech decisions right, but they did handle it by falling back many steps, using current knowledge to build crude antique tech. They had more concern with bootstrapping than jumping straight to launching satellites. They were also concerned with the scarcity and value of rather mundane things in our lives today, like rubber tires, plastic bottles, etc... Some low hanging advances like clean sheets and washing your hand among doctors.
  - eru 5y ago
    That's exactly why the author sends back a whole small town (with libraries etc), instead of just a single smart person.

lstodd 5y ago

> Does it, really? It does, with G. Ritchter and CoCs.

bayesian_horse 5y ago
They aren't a traditional Union. They aren't organized around professions or industries. They are fighting against anti-semites, nobility, for occasional odd causes (sanitation). Unions are more of a labor vs capital thing, banding together for more bargaining power. In the 1632 series this isn't a big issue yet because most people aren't working for employers with many employees, so the power imbalance isn't yet as bad. Also the ring of fire "back-ported" some labor rights legislation.
- spiralx 5y ago
  The CoCs are to guilds as unions are to factories in my opinion - they both are for workers' rights but operate within different power structures.

spiralx 5y ago

Eric Flint specifically talks about his long-term support for unions in one of the prefaces (I think) of the early books in the series, quite likely 1632 itself. He's worked in a union as a longshoreman, truck driver, auto worker, steelworker, meatpacker, glassblower and a machinist and was a labour union organiser.

eru 5y ago

The hero of the first book is a union man.