4 ms·

Not passing any judgment on the books themselves, but that web page makes me want to run a mile. “At that moment Freedom and Justice, American style, are intro

Not passing any judgment on the books themselves, but that web page makes me want to run a mile. “At that moment Freedom and Justice, American style, are introduced to the middle of The Thirty Years War.” It all feels a little too like A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court but not written as a burlesque.

throwanem 5y ago
As with durian, nattō, and many others in Baen's stable, Eric Flint is very much an acquired taste.
- mherdeg 5y ago
  I wonder how much overlap there is in fan base between Flint and his occasional collaborator David Weber? I've read all the Honor Harrington books/stories and basically nothing else by either of them. Every now and then I read the phpbb forums (forums.davidweber.net) because it's interesting to see conversations by people who have a pretty different worldview than me. Seems like pretty nice folks.
  - fmajid 5y ago
    I have no issues with Eric Flint or David Weber (although I find Flint's infatuation with Gustavus Adolphus quite bizarre). The one author whose book I just set down because it made want to puke was one by John Ringo (it was an ARC, don't worry, no money of mine went into his pocket).
    - throwanem 5y ago
      As a historiographer, Flint makes a solid writer. As a writer, Weber makes a solid historiographer.
    - spiralx 5y ago
      I read this review of one of John Ringo's series some years back and have never been tempted to read anything by him - the review is hilarious, the books sound absolutely fucking awful. https://hradzka.livejournal.com/194753.html https://hradzka.livejournal.com/194753.html This review even coined the meme "OH JOHN RINGO NO" lol.
      - LegitShady 5y ago
        I don't have asuch time to read as I used to but I used to read a lot (like 3-4 novels a week) and John Ringo's books stand out to me as the type that are so bad they're funny if that makes sense. Its not that he can't write because he can, it's that he crossed the line of "well that's in bad taste" over into "you're doing this on purpose right?". I can't say "good times" but i read a bunch of Ringo's books just because I couldn't believe how an original so bad could get multiple sequals.
        throwanem 5y ago
        > I couldn't believe how an original so bad could get multiple sequels Eh. Baen is (was?) a capitalist, and his publishing house operates likewise - if it sells, they'll buy more of it. I can respect that, even if it doesn't always result in great literature. (Honorverse novels used to be a major guilty pleasure, I'm not in any position to judge here.)
corpdronejuly 5y ago
For most fans of the series this is a feature, not a bug. There is a lot of desperate demand for the simple acknowledgment that America got a lot of things right, and had a deep commitment to doing better. The books have some lengthy subplots exploring our nations sins, and dark parts. But the general framing is, "good people with good intent doing their best who fall short, get up and do their best again. And that is AWESOME!"
- karlmdavis 5y ago
  I think “deep commitment” is rather debatable. We’ve moved in the right direction, generally, but only slowly and with far too much foot dragging. Remember, gay marriage was only legalized six years ago. Six! And that’s just one example out of many.
piaste 5y ago
Having read many of the books and short stories as a boy, I would rank them as 'entertainingly trashy'. The Americans are a collection of unintentionally hilarious stereotypes - the rugged hero who saves the beautiful & brilliant damsel in distress and gets everybody swooning over him, the virgin nerd who suddenly gets appreciated by a strong girl, the badass teenager girl who shows all those prejudiced old fools how much ass a badass teenager girl can kick, oh yeah! The 'native' characters are a bit better, because the author is constrained by historical records to make them slightly less cartoonish. Gustav Adolf (& related family) is the designated Good King but he's still an absolute king and occasionally a jerk as a result; Axel Oxenstierna and Richelieu get caricatured as villainous viziers but their reasons for opposing the New American Order do get at least a perfunctory acknowledgment. Non-historical 'native' characters are as two-dimensional as the Americans, though. The reason I do not regret reading the series is that it scratches certain nerdy itches very very well. It's full of wikipedia-type fun facts that gets turned into plot points, like clothing dyes being a big deal, or customary laws of Early Modern Germany being an absolute clusterfuck, and of course all kinds of changing social mores from privacy in the presence of house servants to serving wine to children. It has funny nerd moments like Lennard Torstensson gawking over a micrometer, or when Richelieu is revealed to be the first leader smart enough to acquire a spoiler (a history book from the 'future') and take action over it, in that case refocusing away from costly European wars in order to consolidate control of the New World and set up France to become the dominant world empire in the timeline. I think the short stories are probably the best part of the setting for an adult reader, because they have less focus on the sub-par characters and more focus on the fascinating peculiarities of the time and place. And while the History of kingdoms and religions got derailed pretty early in the series, making historical accuracy kind of a moot point, the little histories of craftsmen and traders get a chance to shine and be properly explored in the short stories.
BryantD 5y ago
To some degree, that's more reflective of Baen's marketing than it is of the book. Or, more accurately: Eric Flint's concept of American freedom and justice is not the same as John Ringo or Thomas Kratman's concept of the same. At least at the time of publication, he was a serious union supporter and at one point was a member of the Socialist Workers Party. 1632 is not at all a socialist novel, but the concept of workers rights is important for at least the first few books (which is as far as I read). I found them moderately enjoyable pulp adventure myself.
ThrowawayR2 5y ago
If the theme bothers you, I'd instead try Flint's previous Belisarius series, which similarly has introduction of anachronistic tech as one of its themes in the context the Eastern Roman Empire in the era of Justinian the Great. It's not deep but it is fun and frankly, I thought it was much better written than the 1632 series, which IMO was rather unmemorable.
- spiralx 5y ago
  Another good series and one that having read and enjoyed meant I decided to chance 1632 despite the awful cover and blurb.
spiralx 5y ago
To be honest everything about the cover and blurb put me off reading 1632, but I've learnt that American fantasy/SF books require applying the maxim "don't judge a book by its cover" quite literally due to the fashion for overblown or just bad cover art and blurb, plus I'd read and enjoyed Eric Flint's _Belisarius_ series, which also dealt with cross-time technology introduction. Lastly, 1632 was free on Amazon, so I figured it was worth a punt! I'm very glad I did because the books are actually incredibly broad in scope and nuance, not at all "America Fuck Yeah!"

throwanem 5y ago

As with durian, nattō, and many others in Baen's stable, Eric Flint is very much an acquired taste.

mherdeg 5y ago
I wonder how much overlap there is in fan base between Flint and his occasional collaborator David Weber? I've read all the Honor Harrington books/stories and basically nothing else by either of them. Every now and then I read the phpbb forums (forums.davidweber.net) because it's interesting to see conversations by people who have a pretty different worldview than me. Seems like pretty nice folks.
- fmajid 5y ago
  I have no issues with Eric Flint or David Weber (although I find Flint's infatuation with Gustavus Adolphus quite bizarre). The one author whose book I just set down because it made want to puke was one by John Ringo (it was an ARC, don't worry, no money of mine went into his pocket).
  - throwanem 5y ago
    As a historiographer, Flint makes a solid writer. As a writer, Weber makes a solid historiographer.
  - spiralx 5y ago
    I read this review of one of John Ringo's series some years back and have never been tempted to read anything by him - the review is hilarious, the books sound absolutely fucking awful. https://hradzka.livejournal.com/194753.html https://hradzka.livejournal.com/194753.html This review even coined the meme "OH JOHN RINGO NO" lol.
    - LegitShady 5y ago
      I don't have asuch time to read as I used to but I used to read a lot (like 3-4 novels a week) and John Ringo's books stand out to me as the type that are so bad they're funny if that makes sense. Its not that he can't write because he can, it's that he crossed the line of "well that's in bad taste" over into "you're doing this on purpose right?". I can't say "good times" but i read a bunch of Ringo's books just because I couldn't believe how an original so bad could get multiple sequals.
      - throwanem 5y ago
        > I couldn't believe how an original so bad could get multiple sequels Eh. Baen is (was?) a capitalist, and his publishing house operates likewise - if it sells, they'll buy more of it. I can respect that, even if it doesn't always result in great literature. (Honorverse novels used to be a major guilty pleasure, I'm not in any position to judge here.)

corpdronejuly 5y ago

For most fans of the series this is a feature, not a bug. There is a lot of desperate demand for the simple acknowledgment that America got a lot of things right, and had a deep commitment to doing better. The books have some lengthy subplots exploring our nations sins, and dark parts. But the general framing is, "good people with good intent doing their best who fall short, get up and do their best again. And that is AWESOME!"

karlmdavis 5y ago
I think “deep commitment” is rather debatable. We’ve moved in the right direction, generally, but only slowly and with far too much foot dragging. Remember, gay marriage was only legalized six years ago. Six! And that’s just one example out of many.

piaste 5y ago

Having read many of the books and short stories as a boy, I would rank them as 'entertainingly trashy'. The Americans are a collection of unintentionally hilarious stereotypes - the rugged hero who saves the beautiful & brilliant damsel in distress and gets everybody swooning over him, the virgin nerd who suddenly gets appreciated by a strong girl, the badass teenager girl who shows all those prejudiced old fools how much ass a badass teenager girl can kick, oh yeah! The 'native' characters are a bit better, because the author is constrained by historical records to make them slightly less cartoonish. Gustav Adolf (& related family) is the designated Good King but he's still an absolute king and occasionally a jerk as a result; Axel Oxenstierna and Richelieu get caricatured as villainous viziers but their reasons for opposing the New American Order do get at least a perfunctory acknowledgment. Non-historical 'native' characters are as two-dimensional as the Americans, though. The reason I do not regret reading the series is that it scratches certain nerdy itches very very well. It's full of wikipedia-type fun facts that gets turned into plot points, like clothing dyes being a big deal, or customary laws of Early Modern Germany being an absolute clusterfuck, and of course all kinds of changing social mores from privacy in the presence of house servants to serving wine to children. It has funny nerd moments like Lennard Torstensson gawking over a micrometer, or when Richelieu is revealed to be the first leader smart enough to acquire a spoiler (a history book from the 'future') and take action over it, in that case refocusing away from costly European wars in order to consolidate control of the New World and set up France to become the dominant world empire in the timeline. I think the short stories are probably the best part of the setting for an adult reader, because they have less focus on the sub-par characters and more focus on the fascinating peculiarities of the time and place. And while the History of kingdoms and religions got derailed pretty early in the series, making historical accuracy kind of a moot point, the little histories of craftsmen and traders get a chance to shine and be properly explored in the short stories.

BryantD 5y ago

To some degree, that's more reflective of Baen's marketing than it is of the book. Or, more accurately: Eric Flint's concept of American freedom and justice is not the same as John Ringo or Thomas Kratman's concept of the same. At least at the time of publication, he was a serious union supporter and at one point was a member of the Socialist Workers Party. 1632 is not at all a socialist novel, but the concept of workers rights is important for at least the first few books (which is as far as I read). I found them moderately enjoyable pulp adventure myself.

ThrowawayR2 5y ago

If the theme bothers you, I'd instead try Flint's previous Belisarius series, which similarly has introduction of anachronistic tech as one of its themes in the context the Eastern Roman Empire in the era of Justinian the Great. It's not deep but it is fun and frankly, I thought it was much better written than the 1632 series, which IMO was rather unmemorable.

spiralx 5y ago
Another good series and one that having read and enjoyed meant I decided to chance 1632 despite the awful cover and blurb.

spiralx 5y ago

To be honest everything about the cover and blurb put me off reading 1632, but I've learnt that American fantasy/SF books require applying the maxim "don't judge a book by its cover" quite literally due to the fashion for overblown or just bad cover art and blurb, plus I'd read and enjoyed Eric Flint's _Belisarius_ series, which also dealt with cross-time technology introduction. Lastly, 1632 was free on Amazon, so I figured it was worth a punt! I'm very glad I did because the books are actually incredibly broad in scope and nuance, not at all "America Fuck Yeah!"