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We could use a bit less wildly inaccurate stereotypes than "extremely puritanical USA". Please consider updating your views of our country from the 18th Century

by rsj_hn 5y ago

We could use a bit less wildly inaccurate stereotypes than "extremely puritanical USA". Please consider updating your views of our country from the 18th Century. Imagine if I went around ranting about "extremely Catholic France".

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rich_sasha 5y ago
In my experience, such attitudes leave a hefty footprint on the culture -- or if you prefer, take much longer to shake off than the regime that bred them, religious in this case. In Europe you can still very clearly see which countries have a protestant, "work hard or go to hell" attitude to life, and which have an, oddly, Catholic "let's enjoy life and see how it goes" approach. Religion participation rates have dwindled away in Western Europe for sure, since WWII if not before.
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  Sure, but there is a difference between "being influenced by puritan culture along with many other historical forces" and "extremely puritan nation". I'm also not so sure about the accuracy of your Catholic stereotypes. The greatest German industry and wealth is in the Catholic south ("upper Germany"), for example, and not in the Protestant North or Northeast. Similarly there are huge differences between Northern and Southern Italy yet both are Catholic, so I don't think it's religion that is the difference maker when comparing, say, Germany and Italy's productivity and work habits.
  - rich_sasha 5y ago
    Well, for one, I'm not claiming that religious affiliation is a sole determinant of future success. Also, Prussia was subsequently steam-rolled by the USSR machine. But compare general attitudes in France, Italy, Spain vs. Netherlands and the Nordics. Or Austria vs. Germany. I think the overall point is quite valid. If you look at a whole host of societal norms in the US, they will be quite puritanical, compared to a bunch of [formerly] Catholic places, even though the US is far more socially liberal than many (most?) Catholic countries. You can always argue about what words to use to quantify, is it "extremely" puritan or merely "strongly influenced", not sure this can lead anywhere.
    - rsj_hn 5y ago
      > If you look at a whole host of societal norms in the US, they will be quite puritanical Honestly, I don't see this and think it's both bad history and bad social commentary. Cities all across the country let people walk into a store and steal whatever they want without prosecution. Homeless people defecating in city squares. Higher levels of corruption and bribery than in Europe. Much more more crime and lawlessness than in Europe. Certainly doesn't seem puritanical to me. If you are seriously interested in the U.S. founding, I'd recommend reading Albion's Seed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albion's_Seed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albion's_Seed Yes, there were puritans in New England. But also tobacco farmers in Virginia, Cavaliers, and Scotch-Irish and border English in the South, and the Spanish Catholic settlers in California and Florida. Incidentally the first European settlement of the US was Spanish Catholics. And then of course waves of primarily Catholic immigrants from Europe in the 1920s and the current wave of primarily Catholic immigrants from Latin America. It might be interesting to note that historically the U.S. was viewed (by Europeans) as a corrupt, lawless country, made wealthy by enormous land/person ratios. It was only after WW1 that the U.S. began to flex its economic power but it still maintained a "gangster" reputation, and in fact was the home of many world famous gangsters and scoundrels, together with grifting machine politics in all the major urban cities from Boston's Irish machine that gave us the Kennedy dynasty to Huey Long's machine in the South and virtually everything in between. Puritan was simply not the first word that came to mind in any meaningful description of the U.S. dating from the 19th century onwards.
      - WastingMyTime89 5y ago
        > Honestly, I don't see this and think it's both bad history and bad social commentary. Texas just made abortion illegal. There was a huge scandal because someone inadvertently displayed a nipple on live television. The definition of nudity includes showing a mere breast. A majority of people think you can’t be moral if you don’t believe in god. People regularly swear on the bible in court. > but it still maintained a "gangster" reputation Because it made alcohol consumption illegal out of a rigorous conception of moral purity. The USA remains heavily influenced by the puritain ideas in its culture. Far more than a country like France where 70% of the population says they are not religious and 29% say they don’t believe at all.

by rsj_hn 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

rich_sasha 5y ago

In my experience, such attitudes leave a hefty footprint on the culture -- or if you prefer, take much longer to shake off than the regime that bred them, religious in this case. In Europe you can still very clearly see which countries have a protestant, "work hard or go to hell" attitude to life, and which have an, oddly, Catholic "let's enjoy life and see how it goes" approach. Religion participation rates have dwindled away in Western Europe for sure, since WWII if not before.

rsj_hn 5y ago
Sure, but there is a difference between "being influenced by puritan culture along with many other historical forces" and "extremely puritan nation". I'm also not so sure about the accuracy of your Catholic stereotypes. The greatest German industry and wealth is in the Catholic south ("upper Germany"), for example, and not in the Protestant North or Northeast. Similarly there are huge differences between Northern and Southern Italy yet both are Catholic, so I don't think it's religion that is the difference maker when comparing, say, Germany and Italy's productivity and work habits.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  Well, for one, I'm not claiming that religious affiliation is a sole determinant of future success. Also, Prussia was subsequently steam-rolled by the USSR machine. But compare general attitudes in France, Italy, Spain vs. Netherlands and the Nordics. Or Austria vs. Germany. I think the overall point is quite valid. If you look at a whole host of societal norms in the US, they will be quite puritanical, compared to a bunch of [formerly] Catholic places, even though the US is far more socially liberal than many (most?) Catholic countries. You can always argue about what words to use to quantify, is it "extremely" puritan or merely "strongly influenced", not sure this can lead anywhere.
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    > If you look at a whole host of societal norms in the US, they will be quite puritanical Honestly, I don't see this and think it's both bad history and bad social commentary. Cities all across the country let people walk into a store and steal whatever they want without prosecution. Homeless people defecating in city squares. Higher levels of corruption and bribery than in Europe. Much more more crime and lawlessness than in Europe. Certainly doesn't seem puritanical to me. If you are seriously interested in the U.S. founding, I'd recommend reading Albion's Seed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albion's_Seed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albion's_Seed Yes, there were puritans in New England. But also tobacco farmers in Virginia, Cavaliers, and Scotch-Irish and border English in the South, and the Spanish Catholic settlers in California and Florida. Incidentally the first European settlement of the US was Spanish Catholics. And then of course waves of primarily Catholic immigrants from Europe in the 1920s and the current wave of primarily Catholic immigrants from Latin America. It might be interesting to note that historically the U.S. was viewed (by Europeans) as a corrupt, lawless country, made wealthy by enormous land/person ratios. It was only after WW1 that the U.S. began to flex its economic power but it still maintained a "gangster" reputation, and in fact was the home of many world famous gangsters and scoundrels, together with grifting machine politics in all the major urban cities from Boston's Irish machine that gave us the Kennedy dynasty to Huey Long's machine in the South and virtually everything in between. Puritan was simply not the first word that came to mind in any meaningful description of the U.S. dating from the 19th century onwards.
    - WastingMyTime89 5y ago
      > Honestly, I don't see this and think it's both bad history and bad social commentary. Texas just made abortion illegal. There was a huge scandal because someone inadvertently displayed a nipple on live television. The definition of nudity includes showing a mere breast. A majority of people think you can’t be moral if you don’t believe in god. People regularly swear on the bible in court. > but it still maintained a "gangster" reputation Because it made alcohol consumption illegal out of a rigorous conception of moral purity. The USA remains heavily influenced by the puritain ideas in its culture. Far more than a country like France where 70% of the population says they are not religious and 29% say they don’t believe at all.