4 ms·

>>>I personally can't stand this degrowth mindset that would bring us back to the hunter gatherer era Your derogatory language towards forest-gatherer lifestyl

>>>I personally can't stand this degrowth mindset that would bring us back to the hunter gatherer era Your derogatory language towards forest-gatherer lifestyle means that you have not read article - that article is about hunter-gatherers who live in forests. Where else they can get their grubs, to cook? Where they can gather meat and wood?

Bobylonian 5y ago
That's not really an excuse to use derogatory language. What else are you thinking about those people?
- atlasunshrugged 5y ago
  Are you referring to my comment about not liking the degrowth mindset and wanting to go back to hunter gathering? I'm not sure why that's derogatory. Do you think most of the people referenced in the article would not trade their current lifestyles for a middle class life in the US or Europe today? I also was talking specifically about "degrowth mindset" which is not referring to the people actually living in the conditions described in the article but rather westerners who want to drag the world back from technological progress in a misguided attempt to save it. I think Tyler Cowen had a good talk/article about it in Marginal Revolution a few weeks back, and Noahpinion (Bloomberg columnist) had a good post about it. The things I am optimizing for generally in my worldview are 1) increasing quality of life for the most people possible, 2) preventing x-risks. I mention this so you can understand where I'm coming from. I just don't think that a malthusian/degrowth mindset will help anyone. And no, I don't like hunter-gathering as an idea in general for the world (although some days after I'm sick of all the tech and nonsense around us I do dream of it) but for the long term sake of humanity reverting to this seems short-sighted... what if we need global coordination on a problem like asteroid avoidance or a supervolcano and humanity is extinguished because we don't have the requisite technology to tackle it? https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/people-are-realizing-that-degrowth https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/people-are-realizing-that-...
  - Bobylonian 5y ago
    >>>Do you think most of the people referenced in the article would not trade their current lifestyles for a middle class life in the US or Europe today? I'm very realistic about this and trees will be chopped to insure that these people advance towards that lifestyle. Either that or they will migrate. My take is that everyone has read in that article what they wanted to read. Even if presented here as a "saving tree" issue, this article is hardly about saving trees - at best that is a story about developing country, that has similar problems that US and previously Europe endured. Also, in the light of COP26(that everyone here has long forgotten), where rulers of Earth arrived in private jets, it really starts to show that most of people are mindless parrots and not individual thinkers, that Humans could be. >>>but rather westerners who want to drag the world back from technological progress in a misguided attempt to save it. I'm sure that no one wants to give up their lifestyle to do so. But that doesn't mean that they can't preach it to others... >>>1) increasing quality of life for the most people possible, 2) preventing x-risks. I mention this so you can understand where I'm coming from. That is a noble task and the only price for that is punishment of a Saviour. Though, I'm slightly sceptical about members of ex-colonizers providing help to ex-colonies, as from the common memory of my people, centuries old hatred does not wane if "oppressors" are still lingering around with their help... >>>I just don't think that a malthusian/degrowth mindset will help anyone. Neither is helping a denial about crisis. Malthusian theory is scientific attempt to describe common pattern of growth and collapses of societies. Unfortunatelly there does not seem to be anything better to describe those. Also, despite your claims, it seems, that you have that same mindset you are so dreaded about as the whole article about disappearance of trees belongs to the same doom scenario that can happen in future. Well, I for one am very deeply disappointed in those, because according to UN in 1980s, Kiribati had to be under water by 2000 and it is still there... I know, I know - the speed is not fast enough and Kiribati will face it's doom in about 100(not 50) years, but I have exactly the same attitude to other doom scenarious. Yeah, by that time people will learn how to breathe CO2 and it is outrageous, that there is an idea to deal with that, too... >>>what if we need global coordination on a problem like asteroid avoidance or a supervolcano and humanity is extinguished because we don't have the requisite technology to tackle it? Honestly, not our problem. Worrying about something that is not preventable is not very sane and constantly living in fear is not healthy. Anyway, if there will be such event, get your best drink and enjoy it while it lasts.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
atlasunshrugged 5y ago
I'm sorry, do you think they are literally only hunting and gathering now? Have you traveled much in sub-saharan Africa? I'm just back from 6 weeks doing business in Cameroon. These people maybe gathering some food and engaged in low productivity agriculture but often they also are having cell phones, many go to cities to trade, they're using motorbikes and vehicles, etc., many more young people go to cities to work and send money back home. These are not like uncontacted Amazonian tribes doing traditional hunter gathering work, the article talks about them using the ForestLink solution!

Bobylonian 5y ago

That's not really an excuse to use derogatory language. What else are you thinking about those people?

atlasunshrugged 5y ago
Are you referring to my comment about not liking the degrowth mindset and wanting to go back to hunter gathering? I'm not sure why that's derogatory. Do you think most of the people referenced in the article would not trade their current lifestyles for a middle class life in the US or Europe today? I also was talking specifically about "degrowth mindset" which is not referring to the people actually living in the conditions described in the article but rather westerners who want to drag the world back from technological progress in a misguided attempt to save it. I think Tyler Cowen had a good talk/article about it in Marginal Revolution a few weeks back, and Noahpinion (Bloomberg columnist) had a good post about it. The things I am optimizing for generally in my worldview are 1) increasing quality of life for the most people possible, 2) preventing x-risks. I mention this so you can understand where I'm coming from. I just don't think that a malthusian/degrowth mindset will help anyone. And no, I don't like hunter-gathering as an idea in general for the world (although some days after I'm sick of all the tech and nonsense around us I do dream of it) but for the long term sake of humanity reverting to this seems short-sighted... what if we need global coordination on a problem like asteroid avoidance or a supervolcano and humanity is extinguished because we don't have the requisite technology to tackle it? https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/people-are-realizing-that-degrowth https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/people-are-realizing-that-...
- Bobylonian 5y ago
  >>>Do you think most of the people referenced in the article would not trade their current lifestyles for a middle class life in the US or Europe today? I'm very realistic about this and trees will be chopped to insure that these people advance towards that lifestyle. Either that or they will migrate. My take is that everyone has read in that article what they wanted to read. Even if presented here as a "saving tree" issue, this article is hardly about saving trees - at best that is a story about developing country, that has similar problems that US and previously Europe endured. Also, in the light of COP26(that everyone here has long forgotten), where rulers of Earth arrived in private jets, it really starts to show that most of people are mindless parrots and not individual thinkers, that Humans could be. >>>but rather westerners who want to drag the world back from technological progress in a misguided attempt to save it. I'm sure that no one wants to give up their lifestyle to do so. But that doesn't mean that they can't preach it to others... >>>1) increasing quality of life for the most people possible, 2) preventing x-risks. I mention this so you can understand where I'm coming from. That is a noble task and the only price for that is punishment of a Saviour. Though, I'm slightly sceptical about members of ex-colonizers providing help to ex-colonies, as from the common memory of my people, centuries old hatred does not wane if "oppressors" are still lingering around with their help... >>>I just don't think that a malthusian/degrowth mindset will help anyone. Neither is helping a denial about crisis. Malthusian theory is scientific attempt to describe common pattern of growth and collapses of societies. Unfortunatelly there does not seem to be anything better to describe those. Also, despite your claims, it seems, that you have that same mindset you are so dreaded about as the whole article about disappearance of trees belongs to the same doom scenario that can happen in future. Well, I for one am very deeply disappointed in those, because according to UN in 1980s, Kiribati had to be under water by 2000 and it is still there... I know, I know - the speed is not fast enough and Kiribati will face it's doom in about 100(not 50) years, but I have exactly the same attitude to other doom scenarious. Yeah, by that time people will learn how to breathe CO2 and it is outrageous, that there is an idea to deal with that, too... >>>what if we need global coordination on a problem like asteroid avoidance or a supervolcano and humanity is extinguished because we don't have the requisite technology to tackle it? Honestly, not our problem. Worrying about something that is not preventable is not very sane and constantly living in fear is not healthy. Anyway, if there will be such event, get your best drink and enjoy it while it lasts.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

atlasunshrugged 5y ago

I'm sorry, do you think they are literally only hunting and gathering now? Have you traveled much in sub-saharan Africa? I'm just back from 6 weeks doing business in Cameroon. These people maybe gathering some food and engaged in low productivity agriculture but often they also are having cell phones, many go to cities to trade, they're using motorbikes and vehicles, etc., many more young people go to cities to work and send money back home. These are not like uncontacted Amazonian tribes doing traditional hunter gathering work, the article talks about them using the ForestLink solution!