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Please provide an example in recent history where Russia's territory itself was attacked by western forces the way Russia attacked the territory of its neighbor

by nickpp 5y ago

Please provide an example in recent history where Russia's territory itself was attacked by western forces the way Russia attacked the territory of its neighbors.

thriftwy 5y ago
In 1994, "the west" will supply Chechen insurgents and help them with press campaigns and supply via proxy. In 2014, Russia will supply Donbass insurgents and help them with press campaigns and supply via proxy. Discuss?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- adriancr 5y ago
  > In 1994, "the west" will supply Chechen insurgents and help them with press campaigns and supply via proxy. sources, this is quite an outlandish claim? > In 2014, Russia will supply Donbass insurgents and help them with press campaigns and supply via proxy. Do you mean Russian troops invaded Ukraine but took off their id tags and have full military support? (and diplomatic since everyone knows they're Russian troops and anyone other then Ukraine killing them would provoke war?)
  - thriftwy 5y ago
    "the west" was on good terms with many islamist groups pre-2001, and they happily provided troops for Chechen side. You can start with https://translate.yandex.ru/translate?url=https%3A%2F%2Fru.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FИностранные_боевики_на_Северном_Кавказе&lang=ru-en https://translate.yandex.ru/translate?url=https%3A%2F%2Fru.w... With a lot of western media routinely showing Chechen insurgents as good people, Russian army as bad people (and then, showing Donbass insurgents as bad people, Ukrainian army as good people) they had it all fully coming. Wagging your tongue in press is an act of war.
    - adriancr 5y ago
      You're not getting off this easy. This is what you said: > In 1994, "the west" will supply Chechen insurgents and help them with press campaigns and supply via proxy. Where's the sources that "the west" supplied the Chechen insurgents and helped them? And please share an English version of wikipedia, not a yandex translated version of a wikipedia page in Russian that has edits which have not even been verified. (which should have an equivalent in English anyway but I could not find it) What I would expect is similar to the CIA involvement in Afghanistan when Russia invaded which is widely sourced and documented and a quick google search away. If there was such involvement as you say, it would have sources already. (that being 30 years ago)
      - thriftwy 5y ago
        We're not in court and I don't owe you whatever you demand, while being content with whatever you provide. I'm just saying that, based on Russian wikipedia, Russians have moral base to think they're getting worse treatment from other parties than their own treatment of other parties, so they are on the good side of Kantian categorical imperative. You can't disprove that by just saying "I don't agree", "I don't like your wikipedia" and "My media says otherwise".
        adriancr 5y ago
        I'm not disproving, you made an statement without sources, that doesn't make it true. If you had sources I would have likely learned something new.
- nickpp 5y ago
  You mean Chechnya's attempt to leave the Russian empire it's been unwillingly part of since the 19th century? The only thing they had in common is that in both wars Russia won. Where were those evil Western forces then? Only in Russian rhetoric to justify its wars.
  - thriftwy 5y ago
    You mean Donbass's attempt to leave the Ukraine failed state it's been unwillingly part of since 1920s, or maybe one can say 1991 hmm? Then these people will talk of whatboutism.
    - nickpp 5y ago
      So Russian forces were involved (moral base or not) in both your examples, while Western forces in neither. Here's a more complete list of Russia's attacks on its neighbor's territories. You'll notice they're pretty much all victories in the end: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia#Russian_Federation_(1991-present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia#... Still waiting to see those Western attacks on Russian territories that worry you so much to justify the aforementioned aggressions.
    - kspacewalk2 5y ago
      > the Ukraine failed state it's been unwillingly part of since 1920s, or maybe one can say 1991 hmm? Someone hasn't heard of the Ukraine independence referendum of 1991, I see. And, unlike the Crimean Anschluss referendum, that one was in fact free and fair, with both sides campaigning and no comrades with AK-47s at the polling stations.
      - thriftwy 5y ago
        Your argument is not water-tight. Either both Chechnya and Donbass are allowed to use military force to try and become independent, or none of them are.
        5y ago
tsimionescu 5y ago
WWII is not that long ago, in the grand scheme of things. And if you expand "Russia" to "The Soviet Union", there are many examples of US and European efforts to destabilize various members/vassals of the USSR (culminating in its dissolution). There are also various examples of NATO or its member countries attacking Russian allies or friendly states close to its borders, notably in the Middle East, but also in Europe (the Kosovo war).
- nickpp 5y ago
  > expand "Russia" to "The Soviet Union" You mean expand The Empire to the countries it occupied?! Oh no no no no no. You are not gonna point to Russia's victims and declare their wounds attacks on their aggressor. And I was asking about actual attacks on the Russian territories, since that is what you pretend they are afraid of and protecting themselves against while happily attacking neighboring non-Russian territories without hesitation.
- caskstrength 5y ago
  > WWII is not that long ago, in the grand scheme of things. Nazi Germany was USSR's ally. It is technically "west", but you are not really answering OP's question in good faith IMO. > there are many examples of US and European efforts to destabilize various members/vassals of the USSR (culminating in its dissolution) Ohh please. The "CIA/Soros/NATO agents de-stabilized this country we are occupying (or trying to occupy) so it is _their_ fault we are doing it" is classical Russian propaganda trope. People were fed up with communism and voted to leave. Stop trying to take away their agency! > There are also various examples of NATO or its member countries attacking Russian allies or friendly states close to its borders, notably in the Middle East, but also in Europe (the Kosovo war). So answer is no, you can't provide any examples of NATO states attacking Russian territory?

by nickpp 5y ago

Please provide an example in recent history where Russia's territory itself was attacked by western forces the way Russia attacked the territory of its neighbors.

thriftwy 5y ago

In 1994, "the west" will supply Chechen insurgents and help them with press campaigns and supply via proxy. In 2014, Russia will supply Donbass insurgents and help them with press campaigns and supply via proxy. Discuss?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
adriancr 5y ago
> In 1994, "the west" will supply Chechen insurgents and help them with press campaigns and supply via proxy. sources, this is quite an outlandish claim? > In 2014, Russia will supply Donbass insurgents and help them with press campaigns and supply via proxy. Do you mean Russian troops invaded Ukraine but took off their id tags and have full military support? (and diplomatic since everyone knows they're Russian troops and anyone other then Ukraine killing them would provoke war?)
- thriftwy 5y ago
  "the west" was on good terms with many islamist groups pre-2001, and they happily provided troops for Chechen side. You can start with https://translate.yandex.ru/translate?url=https%3A%2F%2Fru.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FИностранные_боевики_на_Северном_Кавказе&lang=ru-en https://translate.yandex.ru/translate?url=https%3A%2F%2Fru.w... With a lot of western media routinely showing Chechen insurgents as good people, Russian army as bad people (and then, showing Donbass insurgents as bad people, Ukrainian army as good people) they had it all fully coming. Wagging your tongue in press is an act of war.
  - adriancr 5y ago
    You're not getting off this easy. This is what you said: > In 1994, "the west" will supply Chechen insurgents and help them with press campaigns and supply via proxy. Where's the sources that "the west" supplied the Chechen insurgents and helped them? And please share an English version of wikipedia, not a yandex translated version of a wikipedia page in Russian that has edits which have not even been verified. (which should have an equivalent in English anyway but I could not find it) What I would expect is similar to the CIA involvement in Afghanistan when Russia invaded which is widely sourced and documented and a quick google search away. If there was such involvement as you say, it would have sources already. (that being 30 years ago)
    - thriftwy 5y ago
      We're not in court and I don't owe you whatever you demand, while being content with whatever you provide. I'm just saying that, based on Russian wikipedia, Russians have moral base to think they're getting worse treatment from other parties than their own treatment of other parties, so they are on the good side of Kantian categorical imperative. You can't disprove that by just saying "I don't agree", "I don't like your wikipedia" and "My media says otherwise".
      - adriancr 5y ago
        I'm not disproving, you made an statement without sources, that doesn't make it true. If you had sources I would have likely learned something new.
nickpp 5y ago
You mean Chechnya's attempt to leave the Russian empire it's been unwillingly part of since the 19th century? The only thing they had in common is that in both wars Russia won. Where were those evil Western forces then? Only in Russian rhetoric to justify its wars.
- thriftwy 5y ago
  You mean Donbass's attempt to leave the Ukraine failed state it's been unwillingly part of since 1920s, or maybe one can say 1991 hmm? Then these people will talk of whatboutism.
  - nickpp 5y ago
    So Russian forces were involved (moral base or not) in both your examples, while Western forces in neither. Here's a more complete list of Russia's attacks on its neighbor's territories. You'll notice they're pretty much all victories in the end: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia#Russian_Federation_(1991-present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia#... Still waiting to see those Western attacks on Russian territories that worry you so much to justify the aforementioned aggressions.
  - kspacewalk2 5y ago
    > the Ukraine failed state it's been unwillingly part of since 1920s, or maybe one can say 1991 hmm? Someone hasn't heard of the Ukraine independence referendum of 1991, I see. And, unlike the Crimean Anschluss referendum, that one was in fact free and fair, with both sides campaigning and no comrades with AK-47s at the polling stations.
    - thriftwy 5y ago
      Your argument is not water-tight. Either both Chechnya and Donbass are allowed to use military force to try and become independent, or none of them are.
      - 5y ago

tsimionescu 5y ago

WWII is not that long ago, in the grand scheme of things. And if you expand "Russia" to "The Soviet Union", there are many examples of US and European efforts to destabilize various members/vassals of the USSR (culminating in its dissolution). There are also various examples of NATO or its member countries attacking Russian allies or friendly states close to its borders, notably in the Middle East, but also in Europe (the Kosovo war).

nickpp 5y ago
> expand "Russia" to "The Soviet Union" You mean expand The Empire to the countries it occupied?! Oh no no no no no. You are not gonna point to Russia's victims and declare their wounds attacks on their aggressor. And I was asking about actual attacks on the Russian territories, since that is what you pretend they are afraid of and protecting themselves against while happily attacking neighboring non-Russian territories without hesitation.
caskstrength 5y ago
> WWII is not that long ago, in the grand scheme of things. Nazi Germany was USSR's ally. It is technically "west", but you are not really answering OP's question in good faith IMO. > there are many examples of US and European efforts to destabilize various members/vassals of the USSR (culminating in its dissolution) Ohh please. The "CIA/Soros/NATO agents de-stabilized this country we are occupying (or trying to occupy) so it is _their_ fault we are doing it" is classical Russian propaganda trope. People were fed up with communism and voted to leave. Stop trying to take away their agency! > There are also various examples of NATO or its member countries attacking Russian allies or friendly states close to its borders, notably in the Middle East, but also in Europe (the Kosovo war). So answer is no, you can't provide any examples of NATO states attacking Russian territory?