5 ms·

Yeah why do people have this view on programmers I just don't understand, every other single effing job in the world requires training and ramp-up, except progr

by jseban 5y ago

Yeah why do people have this view on programmers I just don't understand, every other single effing job in the world requires training and ramp-up, except programmers? And the fact that programming is depending on a unique pre-existing really complex code base further speaks against this. When my product owner quit, the new guy was working in parallel for 2 months to learn the ropes, noboby bats an eye, but a programmer is productive from day zero and all programmers have exactly the same output. It's so wrong

markus_zhang 5y ago
I think it depends on the culture of the company. Some companies do allow engineers say a month to catch up.
wyclif 5y ago
Any tech recruiter who tells you there should be no ramp-up for programmers is lying, and you should be accordingly wary if they use a lot of "hit the ground running" talk. Fact is, nobody does that. In some jobs it might take as long as six months for programmers to reach the desired level of productivity.
hyperman1 5y ago
I think they underestimate the value of specific knowledge. A builder that can build X meters of wall every day van do that reasonably independent of the building site. X will of course vary when you give a new kind of stones. The problem with programming is every job has its own kind of stones.
- rramadass 5y ago
  >I think they underestimate the value of specific knowledge This is the crux of the issue. When it comes to "Knowledge Work" almost every step sooner or later becomes a specialization. For example, I used to sneer at the role of a "Build Engineer" until i was forced to take up that role in one project. The combination of HW Platforms, OS versions, config switches, build flags, magic incantations etc. quickly gave me a new found respect for a job which i had considered "trivial".
  - spoils19 5y ago
    I don't understand why you would sneer at a role in the first place, without at least taking some sort of look into what they have to do.
    - rramadass 5y ago
      You have missed the point of the anecdote. It is that one tends to underestimate the complexity involved in a particular job which has evolved well beyond its initial "trivial" requirements. Hence the need to guard consciously against such tendencies particularly in domains where you may not be competent.
- mhb 5y ago
  And they overestimate it when writing job ads.
- BenoitEssiambre 5y ago
  I find that doesn't really capture the difference. In programming, the building part is fully automated. You press play or type a compile command and wait. If someone wants a build estimate, you should give them the time it takes to compile an deploy. Code is blueprint. Writing the code is all engineering, R&D, design and architecture and it usually entails figuring out how the system will interface with countless protocols, legacy systems, details of user's lives etc. It's nothing like building something that is already fully planned. It's a lot more like researching and planning all the details.
marcus_holmes 5y ago
We're just the nerds who push the nerd-buttons. We don't need to understand how it works, or why it should be this way not that way, or what the margins are. Just push the nerd-buttons and the damn thing work like it does in my head! All the hard work has been done by the ideas people who had to do all the creative stuff and make all the hard decisions. Now it just needs to be put into the computer-thingies and work! /s, obviously
jart 5y ago
If you wrote a novel and wanted your friend to write the final chapter, then would you need to train them in your novel beforehand? Not that much different from programming.

by jseban 5y ago

markus_zhang 5y ago

I think it depends on the culture of the company. Some companies do allow engineers say a month to catch up.

wyclif 5y ago

Any tech recruiter who tells you there should be no ramp-up for programmers is lying, and you should be accordingly wary if they use a lot of "hit the ground running" talk. Fact is, nobody does that. In some jobs it might take as long as six months for programmers to reach the desired level of productivity.

hyperman1 5y ago

I think they underestimate the value of specific knowledge. A builder that can build X meters of wall every day van do that reasonably independent of the building site. X will of course vary when you give a new kind of stones. The problem with programming is every job has its own kind of stones.

rramadass 5y ago
>I think they underestimate the value of specific knowledge This is the crux of the issue. When it comes to "Knowledge Work" almost every step sooner or later becomes a specialization. For example, I used to sneer at the role of a "Build Engineer" until i was forced to take up that role in one project. The combination of HW Platforms, OS versions, config switches, build flags, magic incantations etc. quickly gave me a new found respect for a job which i had considered "trivial".
- spoils19 5y ago
  I don't understand why you would sneer at a role in the first place, without at least taking some sort of look into what they have to do.
  - rramadass 5y ago
    You have missed the point of the anecdote. It is that one tends to underestimate the complexity involved in a particular job which has evolved well beyond its initial "trivial" requirements. Hence the need to guard consciously against such tendencies particularly in domains where you may not be competent.
mhb 5y ago
And they overestimate it when writing job ads.
BenoitEssiambre 5y ago
I find that doesn't really capture the difference. In programming, the building part is fully automated. You press play or type a compile command and wait. If someone wants a build estimate, you should give them the time it takes to compile an deploy. Code is blueprint. Writing the code is all engineering, R&D, design and architecture and it usually entails figuring out how the system will interface with countless protocols, legacy systems, details of user's lives etc. It's nothing like building something that is already fully planned. It's a lot more like researching and planning all the details.

marcus_holmes 5y ago

We're just the nerds who push the nerd-buttons. We don't need to understand how it works, or why it should be this way not that way, or what the margins are. Just push the nerd-buttons and the damn thing work like it does in my head! All the hard work has been done by the ideas people who had to do all the creative stuff and make all the hard decisions. Now it just needs to be put into the computer-thingies and work! /s, obviously

jart 5y ago

If you wrote a novel and wanted your friend to write the final chapter, then would you need to train them in your novel beforehand? Not that much different from programming.