4 ms·

I'm not familiar with Kriss or Tao Lin, but First Things, while predominantly Catholic, is ecumenical. They have regular columns from protestants, Jews, Muslims

by jlos 5y ago

I'm not familiar with Kriss or Tao Lin, but First Things, while predominantly Catholic, is ecumenical. They have regular columns from protestants, Jews, Muslims, and even Peter Thiel. I've found they will print some authors from outside their normal milieu if they offer some insight that would benefit the high brow literary conservatism that characterizes the magazine.

V-2 5y ago
"First Things, while predominantly Catholic, is ecumenical. They have regular columns from protestants, Jews, Muslims" For what it's worth, "ecumenical" means promoting Christian unity. So if Catholics carry dialogue with protestants, it may be ecumenical in nature, but with Jews or Muslims (as commendable and fruitful as it may be, but that's not the point) it can't be called that.
- niea_11 5y ago
  I'm not a native english speaker. First time I encountered the word ecumenical in a tv show (Frasier) and understood it in the same way it was used by gp. Maybe it's specific to american english. I checked cambridge dictionary and it confirms that definition : tending to support and encourage unity among different religions Merriam-webster has a similar definition : Worldwide or general in extent, influence, or application Also collins dictionary : interreligious or interdenominational https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ecumenical#cacd-1 https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ecumenic... https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ecumenical https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ecumenical https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/ecumenical#ecumenical__4 https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/ecumeni... Link to the Frasier clip :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfrFkxDzpLU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfrFkxDzpLU
  - V-2 5y ago
    "Merriam-webster has a similar definition : Worldwide or general in extent, influence, or application" Yes, but that's the broader understanding, not related to religion. You can even find somewhat bizarre (to my ear at least) examples like "ecumenical meal of German, Italian, and Chinese dishes", but it's a turn of phrase, and not necessarily applicable in the religious context. In the religious context the very same Merriam-Webster you just quoted defines ecumenism as: "a : of, relating to, or representing the whole of a body of churches b : promoting or tending toward worldwide Christian unity or cooperation" It's kind of like you can have a coding or eating marathon... because in broad sense it's defined as any "long-lasting or difficult task or activity"... but then you still shouldn't call a 10-mile run "marathon". https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/ecumenical https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/englis... "involving or joining together members of different branches of the Christian Church" https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ecumenical https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ecumenic... "encouraging the different Christian Churches to unite" The same in encyclopedias: https://www.britannica.com/topic/ecumenism https://www.britannica.com/topic/ecumenism "ecumenism, movement or tendency toward worldwide Christian unity or cooperation. The term, of recent origin, emphasizes what is viewed as the universality of the Christian faith and unity among churches." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenism "Ecumenism (/ɪˈkjuːmənɪzəm/), also spelled oecumenism, is the concept and principle in which Christians who belong to different Christian denominations work together to develop closer relationships among their churches and promote Christian unity." ("Not to be confused with Interfaith dialogue", correctly points out the article). But maybe I'm just a purist. (Not a native English speaker either, if that matters, although the term is rather universal and not really exclusive to English).
    - niea_11 5y ago
      Maybe you're just focusing on the fact that it's a christian journal. I think the fact that it's a christian journal doesn't mean that the word can't be used in its broader sense in this context. I wasn't aware of the christian specific meaning of the word before reading your first comment. Thanks
    - floor2 5y ago
      FWIW as someone who is both a native English speaker and who grew up in a community where 90% of residents went to church every Sunday, the only usage of "ecumenical" that I'm familiar with would be "open to all religions" or "including people of all faiths", not Christian only. It's not a super commonly used word, so I'm unsurprised that the definition you were taught is not how it's contemporarily used in middle America. Probably a case where if enough people use a word "wrong" then the "wrong" definition becomes a valid usage.
- geerlingguy 5y ago
  Ecumenical, in common use in the Catholic Church in the US at least, typically means "unity among religions" and is not exclusive to Christian/Christocentric religions. For example, a page explicitly outlining an ecumenical relationship with Muslims from the Archdiocese of Chicago: https://eia.archchicago.org/muslim-catholic-relations/about-muslim-catholic-relations-and-the-archdiocese-of-chicago https://eia.archchicago.org/muslim-catholic-relations/about-...
  - V-2 5y ago
    The header of this website clearly says "ECUMENICAL AND INTERRELIGIOUS AFFAIRS". Now, if "ecumenical" and "interreligious" were really a potato/potahto thing, would there be a reason for using both side by side... I'm sure you see my point. The event is called "Muslim-Catholic Interfaith Iftar Dinner". Interfaith, not "ecumenical". I didn't watch the video itself. Does the bishop call this relation "ecumenical"? I don't argue with what the common use is, or seems to be (let alone in the US, where I don't live). I'd only insist that this particular common use - however widespread - is kind of incorrect, or at least inaccurate, misleading.
_2d30 5y ago
Thiel identifies as Catholic.
- Veen 5y ago
  Does he? I got the impression he was an unorthodox Protestant. He's a Christian, but I've never seen him identify as Catholic.
  - nkurz 5y ago
    I think you are right. David Perell has a great article titled "Peter Thiel's Religion" (https://perell.com/essay/peter-thiel/ https://perell.com/essay/peter-thiel/) which doesn't even mention the word "Catholic". This would seem unlikely if he identified as such.

by jlos 5y ago

V-2 5y ago

"First Things, while predominantly Catholic, is ecumenical. They have regular columns from protestants, Jews, Muslims" For what it's worth, "ecumenical" means promoting Christian unity. So if Catholics carry dialogue with protestants, it may be ecumenical in nature, but with Jews or Muslims (as commendable and fruitful as it may be, but that's not the point) it can't be called that.

niea_11 5y ago
I'm not a native english speaker. First time I encountered the word ecumenical in a tv show (Frasier) and understood it in the same way it was used by gp. Maybe it's specific to american english. I checked cambridge dictionary and it confirms that definition : tending to support and encourage unity among different religions Merriam-webster has a similar definition : Worldwide or general in extent, influence, or application Also collins dictionary : interreligious or interdenominational https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ecumenical#cacd-1 https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ecumenic... https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ecumenical https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ecumenical https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/ecumenical#ecumenical__4 https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/ecumeni... Link to the Frasier clip :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfrFkxDzpLU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfrFkxDzpLU
- V-2 5y ago
  "Merriam-webster has a similar definition : Worldwide or general in extent, influence, or application" Yes, but that's the broader understanding, not related to religion. You can even find somewhat bizarre (to my ear at least) examples like "ecumenical meal of German, Italian, and Chinese dishes", but it's a turn of phrase, and not necessarily applicable in the religious context. In the religious context the very same Merriam-Webster you just quoted defines ecumenism as: "a : of, relating to, or representing the whole of a body of churches b : promoting or tending toward worldwide Christian unity or cooperation" It's kind of like you can have a coding or eating marathon... because in broad sense it's defined as any "long-lasting or difficult task or activity"... but then you still shouldn't call a 10-mile run "marathon". https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/ecumenical https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/englis... "involving or joining together members of different branches of the Christian Church" https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ecumenical https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ecumenic... "encouraging the different Christian Churches to unite" The same in encyclopedias: https://www.britannica.com/topic/ecumenism https://www.britannica.com/topic/ecumenism "ecumenism, movement or tendency toward worldwide Christian unity or cooperation. The term, of recent origin, emphasizes what is viewed as the universality of the Christian faith and unity among churches." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenism "Ecumenism (/ɪˈkjuːmənɪzəm/), also spelled oecumenism, is the concept and principle in which Christians who belong to different Christian denominations work together to develop closer relationships among their churches and promote Christian unity." ("Not to be confused with Interfaith dialogue", correctly points out the article). But maybe I'm just a purist. (Not a native English speaker either, if that matters, although the term is rather universal and not really exclusive to English).
  - niea_11 5y ago
    Maybe you're just focusing on the fact that it's a christian journal. I think the fact that it's a christian journal doesn't mean that the word can't be used in its broader sense in this context. I wasn't aware of the christian specific meaning of the word before reading your first comment. Thanks
  - floor2 5y ago
    FWIW as someone who is both a native English speaker and who grew up in a community where 90% of residents went to church every Sunday, the only usage of "ecumenical" that I'm familiar with would be "open to all religions" or "including people of all faiths", not Christian only. It's not a super commonly used word, so I'm unsurprised that the definition you were taught is not how it's contemporarily used in middle America. Probably a case where if enough people use a word "wrong" then the "wrong" definition becomes a valid usage.
geerlingguy 5y ago
Ecumenical, in common use in the Catholic Church in the US at least, typically means "unity among religions" and is not exclusive to Christian/Christocentric religions. For example, a page explicitly outlining an ecumenical relationship with Muslims from the Archdiocese of Chicago: https://eia.archchicago.org/muslim-catholic-relations/about-muslim-catholic-relations-and-the-archdiocese-of-chicago https://eia.archchicago.org/muslim-catholic-relations/about-...
- V-2 5y ago
  The header of this website clearly says "ECUMENICAL AND INTERRELIGIOUS AFFAIRS". Now, if "ecumenical" and "interreligious" were really a potato/potahto thing, would there be a reason for using both side by side... I'm sure you see my point. The event is called "Muslim-Catholic Interfaith Iftar Dinner". Interfaith, not "ecumenical". I didn't watch the video itself. Does the bishop call this relation "ecumenical"? I don't argue with what the common use is, or seems to be (let alone in the US, where I don't live). I'd only insist that this particular common use - however widespread - is kind of incorrect, or at least inaccurate, misleading.

_2d30 5y ago

Thiel identifies as Catholic.

Veen 5y ago
Does he? I got the impression he was an unorthodox Protestant. He's a Christian, but I've never seen him identify as Catholic.
- nkurz 5y ago
  I think you are right. David Perell has a great article titled "Peter Thiel's Religion" (https://perell.com/essay/peter-thiel/ https://perell.com/essay/peter-thiel/) which doesn't even mention the word "Catholic". This would seem unlikely if he identified as such.