7 ms·

Why are we emulating a gas station pump at all for electric cars? Why not something you drive over and it self-guides itself to make contact with multiple cont

Why are we emulating a gas station pump at all for electric cars? Why not something you drive over and it self-guides itself to make contact with multiple contact-points beneath the car.

traceroute66 5y ago
> Why not something you drive over and it self-guides itself to make contact with multiple contact-points beneath the car Real life. That's why. How is your magical drive-over contact widget going to work after a few years of rain, mud, grit and other wear and tear and abuse ? I would put my money on the "not very well" part of the board. The benefit of the plug-in method is that the connector is stowed away from ground level, away from the elements, in a sheltered position. Edit to add: Also I'm not an electrician, but there could be a little issue of arcing and other issues when it comes to high voltage / high amperage. Have you ever seen an electric train arcing in wet weather ? Imagine being stood right next to that !
- nuccy 5y ago
  There are EV busses made by ABB in collaboration with other local companies, e.g. TOSA in Geneva [1]. They charge on few stops on the route for some sub-minute (15-30s) periods and can operate the whole day without charging for longer stationary. The contact pads are hidden from weather, so the busses operate all year round for few years already. 1. https://youtu.be/fm3_N4Js3Nw https://youtu.be/fm3_N4Js3Nw
  - bradfa 5y ago
    That's really cool! It's not really something which could be deployed to general purpose personal vehicles, since they come in many shapes and sizes, but it's great to see such an idea executed for buses which seems like a great place for it.
  - MisterTea 5y ago
    Buses are highly predictable compared to a plethora of different automobiles driven by highly unpredictable humans.
    - fouc 5y ago
      At least until self-driving kicks in
    - 542354234235 5y ago
      Also, drivers are employees and can be/are specifically trained on how to operate the vehicle. That can’t be expected for consumer level systems.
- blueflow 5y ago
  For the arcing: Search the video platform of your choice for "Bügelfeuer".
- kylegordon 5y ago
  HV systems for trains are made safe by separation. HV systems for close quarters use are made safe by technology. The HV plug for your car could easily be wet as well, but it's made safe by having a signal wire and intelligence before it powers up or down. For busses, Alstom have already got a ground based charging system, built upon their years of ground based power for trams. https://www.alstom.com/our-solutions/infrastructure/srs-innovative-safe-and-automatic-charging-trams-and-electric-buses https://www.alstom.com/our-solutions/infrastructure/srs-inno...
- jacquesm 5y ago
  True, but an electric train uses a very large amount of power, compared to charging up an EV in any configuration that's likely not going to be the major issue, besides that there is plenty of time in a charging situation to figure out the parameters of the vehicle, humidity, ideal voltage/amperage combination and so on. Whereas for a train track/overhead wiring situation the voltage is simply always there, and there is no simple way to regulate the power delivered to what is actually required. In fact the opposite: the overhead system has to be able to deliver power to multiple locs on the same segment at once due to push/pull trains.
kube-system 5y ago
I think that's a fair question, but if we're going to power vehicles as they go down the road, doing it from above is a better solution. But the most straightforward answer of why those ideas haven't caught on is because we have a whole lot of existing road infrastructure that we struggle to maintain now. The infrastructure required to charge battery vehicles is tiny in comparison, and on top of that, private industry will fund much of it.
- jcims 5y ago
  I think GP is talking about a big Roomba station for the car.
  - kube-system 5y ago
    Oh, wow, I totally read that a different way.
- andbberger 5y ago
  Great idea, let's put pantographs on teslas. and while we're at it maybe we can reduce the maintenance requirements by putting them on sort of durable guideway, say made out of metal. and if we also use a metal wheel we can use the guideway for return current and only put up one wire...
  - i_am_proteus 5y ago
    Tangential art, in which one gentleman modified a Toyota to run off of municipal transit power lines in San Francisco, United States: https://thebolditalic.com/hacked-prius-running-on-muni-power-lines-the-bold-italic-san-francisco-80cdbe55d68e https://thebolditalic.com/hacked-prius-running-on-muni-power...
    - andbberger 5y ago
      unfortunately not real but a guy can dream of an ebike that runs off the trolleybus wires
  - 5y ago
function_seven 5y ago
That sounds very complicated. You have to design it for various ground clearances, it would be more expensive to install and maintain. You limit other uses for the ground space with whatever rails or guides that would be needed. Or, if it’s smart and uses vision or similar tech to align with the connectors, then more expense and maintenance. On the car itself those contacts would need to be protected from road hazards. So more expense on that end to have a motorized cover the driver has to operate. People know how to use plugs. They’re cheap and familiar. And if standards change, adapters are easier to build. This is cool, though: https://youtu.be/octvXMaTG44 https://youtu.be/octvXMaTG44
aeharding 5y ago
Could even take that a step further and ask why we're emulating cars for electric mobility.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  Because car manufacturers want to keep manufacturing cars. Some of the bigger manufactures don't even want to switch to EV's, they are being dragged screaming and kicking into the future.
fy20 5y ago
I watched a YouTube video the other day about this. Apparently wireless charging tech than can somewhat self align is coming for EVs. https://youtu.be/W3hVLG5iDec https://youtu.be/W3hVLG5iDec
herval 5y ago
Or maybe just swappable batteries? Dock, empty cell goes out through port A, new cell goes in through B, drive off? I reckon the majority of the car weight is batteries, but this could lead to cheaper cars, perhaps with shorter range but able to “recharge” faster than a gas pump, and takes away the range anxiety of an aging battery you can’t easily replace. Probably not factoring in some very obvious drawbacks here, of course.
- yourusername 5y ago
  Tesla tried this. The issue of battery condition is too difficult. No one wants to swap out their brand new pack and chance getting a heavily degraded pack back. Or swap out a heavily degraded pack to be offered a new pack but with a $10k surcharge for the improved battery condition. In new electric cars the battery is a structural component so you can't really remove it to begin with.
  - csunbird 5y ago
    The perfect solution would be to not own the battery packs, e.g. you buy the car without the battery and you swap the batteries that car manufacturer owns whenever you want to "recharge", for a fee.
  - ggm 5y ago
    I realise the moment has passed but structurally integrated batteries aside, this was a huge misconception of the likely reality of battery swap at scale. Starting gate, sure you get lemon packs. It's not like gasoline isn't plagued by low grade fuels and water contamination (it shuts down airports) -but then you get regulatory standards and people normalise to acceptably efficient removal of bad battery packs from the swap scheme. And since you don't own the pack, the problem amortises over the rental costs. People broke the model with what-if games. It never got to critical mass. So it's basically VHS vs beta, for swappable vs integrated and swappable lost, on pretty specious grounds. Integrated is good because strength and weight. Swappable was good on speed. Swappable is alive and well in e-scooters and probably works for trucks. Battery swap did not advantage Tesla in the marketplace and possibly disadvantaged Tesla which had 2x range for most competitors. A viable battery swap economy ends range anxiety, at the density of swap shops. Tesla wouldn't have had a compelling story in swap.

Why are we emulating a gas station pump at all for electric cars? Why not something you drive over and it self-guides itself to make contact with multiple contact-points beneath the car.

traceroute66 5y ago

> Why not something you drive over and it self-guides itself to make contact with multiple contact-points beneath the car Real life. That's why. How is your magical drive-over contact widget going to work after a few years of rain, mud, grit and other wear and tear and abuse ? I would put my money on the "not very well" part of the board. The benefit of the plug-in method is that the connector is stowed away from ground level, away from the elements, in a sheltered position. Edit to add: Also I'm not an electrician, but there could be a little issue of arcing and other issues when it comes to high voltage / high amperage. Have you ever seen an electric train arcing in wet weather ? Imagine being stood right next to that !

nuccy 5y ago
There are EV busses made by ABB in collaboration with other local companies, e.g. TOSA in Geneva [1]. They charge on few stops on the route for some sub-minute (15-30s) periods and can operate the whole day without charging for longer stationary. The contact pads are hidden from weather, so the busses operate all year round for few years already. 1. https://youtu.be/fm3_N4Js3Nw https://youtu.be/fm3_N4Js3Nw
- bradfa 5y ago
  That's really cool! It's not really something which could be deployed to general purpose personal vehicles, since they come in many shapes and sizes, but it's great to see such an idea executed for buses which seems like a great place for it.
- MisterTea 5y ago
  Buses are highly predictable compared to a plethora of different automobiles driven by highly unpredictable humans.
  - fouc 5y ago
    At least until self-driving kicks in
  - 542354234235 5y ago
    Also, drivers are employees and can be/are specifically trained on how to operate the vehicle. That can’t be expected for consumer level systems.
blueflow 5y ago
For the arcing: Search the video platform of your choice for "Bügelfeuer".
kylegordon 5y ago
HV systems for trains are made safe by separation. HV systems for close quarters use are made safe by technology. The HV plug for your car could easily be wet as well, but it's made safe by having a signal wire and intelligence before it powers up or down. For busses, Alstom have already got a ground based charging system, built upon their years of ground based power for trams. https://www.alstom.com/our-solutions/infrastructure/srs-innovative-safe-and-automatic-charging-trams-and-electric-buses https://www.alstom.com/our-solutions/infrastructure/srs-inno...
jacquesm 5y ago
True, but an electric train uses a very large amount of power, compared to charging up an EV in any configuration that's likely not going to be the major issue, besides that there is plenty of time in a charging situation to figure out the parameters of the vehicle, humidity, ideal voltage/amperage combination and so on. Whereas for a train track/overhead wiring situation the voltage is simply always there, and there is no simple way to regulate the power delivered to what is actually required. In fact the opposite: the overhead system has to be able to deliver power to multiple locs on the same segment at once due to push/pull trains.

kube-system 5y ago

I think that's a fair question, but if we're going to power vehicles as they go down the road, doing it from above is a better solution. But the most straightforward answer of why those ideas haven't caught on is because we have a whole lot of existing road infrastructure that we struggle to maintain now. The infrastructure required to charge battery vehicles is tiny in comparison, and on top of that, private industry will fund much of it.

jcims 5y ago
I think GP is talking about a big Roomba station for the car.
- kube-system 5y ago
  Oh, wow, I totally read that a different way.
andbberger 5y ago
Great idea, let's put pantographs on teslas. and while we're at it maybe we can reduce the maintenance requirements by putting them on sort of durable guideway, say made out of metal. and if we also use a metal wheel we can use the guideway for return current and only put up one wire...
- i_am_proteus 5y ago
  Tangential art, in which one gentleman modified a Toyota to run off of municipal transit power lines in San Francisco, United States: https://thebolditalic.com/hacked-prius-running-on-muni-power-lines-the-bold-italic-san-francisco-80cdbe55d68e https://thebolditalic.com/hacked-prius-running-on-muni-power...
  - andbberger 5y ago
    unfortunately not real but a guy can dream of an ebike that runs off the trolleybus wires
- 5y ago

function_seven 5y ago

That sounds very complicated. You have to design it for various ground clearances, it would be more expensive to install and maintain. You limit other uses for the ground space with whatever rails or guides that would be needed. Or, if it’s smart and uses vision or similar tech to align with the connectors, then more expense and maintenance. On the car itself those contacts would need to be protected from road hazards. So more expense on that end to have a motorized cover the driver has to operate. People know how to use plugs. They’re cheap and familiar. And if standards change, adapters are easier to build. This is cool, though: https://youtu.be/octvXMaTG44 https://youtu.be/octvXMaTG44

aeharding 5y ago

Could even take that a step further and ask why we're emulating cars for electric mobility.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
Because car manufacturers want to keep manufacturing cars. Some of the bigger manufactures don't even want to switch to EV's, they are being dragged screaming and kicking into the future.

fy20 5y ago

I watched a YouTube video the other day about this. Apparently wireless charging tech than can somewhat self align is coming for EVs. https://youtu.be/W3hVLG5iDec https://youtu.be/W3hVLG5iDec

herval 5y ago

Or maybe just swappable batteries? Dock, empty cell goes out through port A, new cell goes in through B, drive off? I reckon the majority of the car weight is batteries, but this could lead to cheaper cars, perhaps with shorter range but able to “recharge” faster than a gas pump, and takes away the range anxiety of an aging battery you can’t easily replace. Probably not factoring in some very obvious drawbacks here, of course.

yourusername 5y ago
Tesla tried this. The issue of battery condition is too difficult. No one wants to swap out their brand new pack and chance getting a heavily degraded pack back. Or swap out a heavily degraded pack to be offered a new pack but with a $10k surcharge for the improved battery condition. In new electric cars the battery is a structural component so you can't really remove it to begin with.
- csunbird 5y ago
  The perfect solution would be to not own the battery packs, e.g. you buy the car without the battery and you swap the batteries that car manufacturer owns whenever you want to "recharge", for a fee.
- ggm 5y ago
  I realise the moment has passed but structurally integrated batteries aside, this was a huge misconception of the likely reality of battery swap at scale. Starting gate, sure you get lemon packs. It's not like gasoline isn't plagued by low grade fuels and water contamination (it shuts down airports) -but then you get regulatory standards and people normalise to acceptably efficient removal of bad battery packs from the swap scheme. And since you don't own the pack, the problem amortises over the rental costs. People broke the model with what-if games. It never got to critical mass. So it's basically VHS vs beta, for swappable vs integrated and swappable lost, on pretty specious grounds. Integrated is good because strength and weight. Swappable was good on speed. Swappable is alive and well in e-scooters and probably works for trucks. Battery swap did not advantage Tesla in the marketplace and possibly disadvantaged Tesla which had 2x range for most competitors. A viable battery swap economy ends range anxiety, at the density of swap shops. Tesla wouldn't have had a compelling story in swap.