7 ms·

I grew up in the Eastern Bloc, give me a break. It's tiring being patronized by wealthy liberal Americans continually arguing how Russia isn't really that bad.

by dvt 5y ago

tehjoker 5y ago
Then you should be well aware of the triteness of such accusations.
boringg 5y ago
I agree with you. There are certain parts of the US population that really don't understand what autocratic countries are really like or don't care. They seem to think the US is an autocracy or really close to it but have no real understanding. Its mind bending how daft those groups can be.
Mikeb85 5y ago
And plenty of self-hating Slavs/Easterners from former Soviet countries who don't realize that it's not the 1990's anymore as they've never been back. Hell, my SO left her home country because of a lack of economic opportunity; now we're moving to her home country because of better economic opportunity. Things change.
- kspacewalk2 5y ago
  Man, most Eastern Europe wishes it was the 1990s when it comes to Russian aggression, since it was mostly absent (aside from Moldova in 1992 and the ethnic cleansing of Georgian majority in Abkhazia in 1993, but that's not well known even in Eastern Europe). If ever there was a wrong decade to use in your comment.
  - Mikeb85 5y ago
    Yes, I'm sure they all wish they were still in the largest recessionary/depressionary period in modern history. Things are much better now, objectively.
- caskstrength 5y ago
  > And plenty of self-hating Slavs/Easterners from former Soviet countries who don't realize that it's not the 1990's anymore as they've never been back. Ever heard about Ukraine? (or Moldova, or Georgia...) EDIT: Considering "learning Czech" in your profile, you might be interested in Russian military activity in Czech republic in recent times https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2021/04/26/how-gru-sabotage-and-assassination-operations-in-czechia-and-bulgaria-sought-to-undermine-ukraine/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2021/04/26/how...
  - Mikeb85 5y ago
    > Ever heard about Ukraine? Considering half my family is Ukrainian, yes. I'm aware of many of the things happening in that part of the world, bad and good.
    - caskstrength 5y ago
      Then I guess either me or you misunderstanding OP's meaning in "I grew up in the Eastern Bloc, give me a break. It's tiring being patronized by wealthy liberal Americans continually arguing how Russia isn't really that bad.". It seems you understood is as "economic conditions in Russia (or Eastern Europe in general) are still very bad" but I think OP meant Russia's behavior on international stage.
      - Mikeb85 5y ago
        I understood it as they grew up in communism or the 90's. Left for greener pastures. Probably haven't returned to see things get better. I've seen the same attitude a lot with most immigrants from that region of a certain generation.
        caskstrength 5y ago
        Yes, things definitely became much better economically in Eastern Europe, but I don't think OP was talking about that.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  It's not the 90s any more, but it could be still the 1920s (the Polish-Soviet war), or the 1930s (the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact and the subsequent attack on Poland), or the 1940s (the communist regime being installed, with all decisions controlled from Moscow), or the 1970s (Poland being prepared to become a nuclear wasteland in case of a large NATO-Soviet confrontation, presumably against our national interest), or the 1980s (the Polish state of national emergency, imposed thanks to Soviet pressure), or the present day (where Russia and their satellites can threaten to turn off our natural gas taps for political reasons). In short, at least one country has legitimate reasons to never trust Russia. Since around 2011, Russia has not given a single reliable signal that it's about to change its colours, or that they got rid of the old military attitudes. Instead, they've been provoking as much as they want. IMO, economics are important, but national survival is also at stake here.
- geoka9 5y ago
  > it's not the 1990's anymore Russia has a much more sinister regime now.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- koonsolo 5y ago
  You probably mean the ones that joined the EU. Take Ukraine for example, they are still fully in the "being invaded by Russia" situation.
- c048 5y ago
  Dude, people aren't referring to the 90's when they state how terrible the Russian regime was. It's the decades before that. The 90's started the rebuilding of most countries. The rebuild that was needed after the economic, infrastructural, intellectual and population destruction by the Russians. Why this needs to be pointed out to some people is just mind boggling.
  - Mikeb85 5y ago
    That's when most left hence the reference. It's also not Soviet times either.
tsimionescu 5y ago
People in the Eastern Bloc (which I was not only born in, but have lived my entire life so far in) have a justified historic fear of Russia, and a long-time yearning for the prosperity of the West. This is a perspective that makes sense, but it can also bias us against Russia. For example, few in the Eastern Bloc realize how legitimate Russia's own fears of being surrounded by US-backed enemies and invaded are. To many of us, Russia is the great invader (that is what it has been to our countries, even before WWII), so it seems absurd to imagine them fearing attack. This is not to say, boo hoo poor misunderstood Russia. They have done and continue to do terrible things to others, and to their own people. But it is also important to remember that they have rational motivations behind those ruthless actions, and sometimes even legitimate concerns leading to them (though the loss of human life they cause is not excusable!). It's also important to remember that US and European promises rarely amount to much. Just look at the extension of NATO, an organization explicitly considering Russia an enemy, to the East of East Germany, despite assurances from Bush to Grobachev that it would never do so. Look at the history of unilateral US reneging on deals with Iran. Russia doesn't consider the US a trustworthy deal maker, and they respond in kind. That they are willing to sacrifices human lives to do so is despicable, but hardly unique among powerful states.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  > Just look at the extension of NATO, an organization explicitly considering Russia an enemy, to the East of East Germany, despite assurances from Bush to Grobachev that it would never do so. The assurances concerned non-sovereign territories of a totalitarian state. Now that these states are newly sovereign and post-Soviet (and likely still politically hostile to the idea of going back to the way things were), they are free to do whatever they choose to do. It's their right.
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    No, the assurances were very explicit: NATO will not seek to expand one inch to the East. While countries are free to associate, there are obvious diplomatic costs to joining a hostile military alliance (and NATO is still explicitly hostile to Russia). The fact that Russia has a single blunt instrument that it chooses to wield in these situations is as much the fault of Russia as it is the fault of people seeking to bring hostile military bases on their borders. And again, I am fully aware of how noxious Russia is to the countries that it controls, either today or in the past. Russian influence is autocratic, corruption focused, socially conservative, and insists on Russian interests in the region before the interests of the local populace. I am under no illusions about Russia as some benevolent victim, and not trying to make any propaganda about that. But that doesn't mean we should ascribe their actions to pure malice either, as much propaganda is wont to do; nor that we should feel that much better about being under the influence of their rivals - Empires are never good, and it's always much better to be self-determined, even if at various points various empires have been better or worse in certain regions.

I grew up in the Eastern Bloc, give me a break. It's tiring being patronized by wealthy liberal Americans continually arguing how Russia isn't really that bad.

by dvt 5y ago

I grew up in the Eastern Bloc, give me a break. It's tiring being patronized by wealthy liberal Americans continually arguing how Russia isn't really that bad.

tehjoker 5y ago

Then you should be well aware of the triteness of such accusations.

boringg 5y ago

I agree with you. There are certain parts of the US population that really don't understand what autocratic countries are really like or don't care. They seem to think the US is an autocracy or really close to it but have no real understanding. Its mind bending how daft those groups can be.

Mikeb85 5y ago

And plenty of self-hating Slavs/Easterners from former Soviet countries who don't realize that it's not the 1990's anymore as they've never been back. Hell, my SO left her home country because of a lack of economic opportunity; now we're moving to her home country because of better economic opportunity. Things change.

kspacewalk2 5y ago
Man, most Eastern Europe wishes it was the 1990s when it comes to Russian aggression, since it was mostly absent (aside from Moldova in 1992 and the ethnic cleansing of Georgian majority in Abkhazia in 1993, but that's not well known even in Eastern Europe). If ever there was a wrong decade to use in your comment.
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  Yes, I'm sure they all wish they were still in the largest recessionary/depressionary period in modern history. Things are much better now, objectively.
caskstrength 5y ago
> And plenty of self-hating Slavs/Easterners from former Soviet countries who don't realize that it's not the 1990's anymore as they've never been back. Ever heard about Ukraine? (or Moldova, or Georgia...) EDIT: Considering "learning Czech" in your profile, you might be interested in Russian military activity in Czech republic in recent times https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2021/04/26/how-gru-sabotage-and-assassination-operations-in-czechia-and-bulgaria-sought-to-undermine-ukraine/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2021/04/26/how...
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  > Ever heard about Ukraine? Considering half my family is Ukrainian, yes. I'm aware of many of the things happening in that part of the world, bad and good.
  - caskstrength 5y ago
    Then I guess either me or you misunderstanding OP's meaning in "I grew up in the Eastern Bloc, give me a break. It's tiring being patronized by wealthy liberal Americans continually arguing how Russia isn't really that bad.". It seems you understood is as "economic conditions in Russia (or Eastern Europe in general) are still very bad" but I think OP meant Russia's behavior on international stage.
    - Mikeb85 5y ago
      I understood it as they grew up in communism or the 90's. Left for greener pastures. Probably haven't returned to see things get better. I've seen the same attitude a lot with most immigrants from that region of a certain generation.
      - caskstrength 5y ago
        Yes, things definitely became much better economically in Eastern Europe, but I don't think OP was talking about that.
selfhoster11 5y ago
It's not the 90s any more, but it could be still the 1920s (the Polish-Soviet war), or the 1930s (the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact and the subsequent attack on Poland), or the 1940s (the communist regime being installed, with all decisions controlled from Moscow), or the 1970s (Poland being prepared to become a nuclear wasteland in case of a large NATO-Soviet confrontation, presumably against our national interest), or the 1980s (the Polish state of national emergency, imposed thanks to Soviet pressure), or the present day (where Russia and their satellites can threaten to turn off our natural gas taps for political reasons). In short, at least one country has legitimate reasons to never trust Russia. Since around 2011, Russia has not given a single reliable signal that it's about to change its colours, or that they got rid of the old military attitudes. Instead, they've been provoking as much as they want. IMO, economics are important, but national survival is also at stake here.
geoka9 5y ago
> it's not the 1990's anymore Russia has a much more sinister regime now.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
koonsolo 5y ago
You probably mean the ones that joined the EU. Take Ukraine for example, they are still fully in the "being invaded by Russia" situation.
c048 5y ago
Dude, people aren't referring to the 90's when they state how terrible the Russian regime was. It's the decades before that. The 90's started the rebuilding of most countries. The rebuild that was needed after the economic, infrastructural, intellectual and population destruction by the Russians. Why this needs to be pointed out to some people is just mind boggling.
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  That's when most left hence the reference. It's also not Soviet times either.

tsimionescu 5y ago

People in the Eastern Bloc (which I was not only born in, but have lived my entire life so far in) have a justified historic fear of Russia, and a long-time yearning for the prosperity of the West. This is a perspective that makes sense, but it can also bias us against Russia. For example, few in the Eastern Bloc realize how legitimate Russia's own fears of being surrounded by US-backed enemies and invaded are. To many of us, Russia is the great invader (that is what it has been to our countries, even before WWII), so it seems absurd to imagine them fearing attack. This is not to say, boo hoo poor misunderstood Russia. They have done and continue to do terrible things to others, and to their own people. But it is also important to remember that they have rational motivations behind those ruthless actions, and sometimes even legitimate concerns leading to them (though the loss of human life they cause is not excusable!). It's also important to remember that US and European promises rarely amount to much. Just look at the extension of NATO, an organization explicitly considering Russia an enemy, to the East of East Germany, despite assurances from Bush to Grobachev that it would never do so. Look at the history of unilateral US reneging on deals with Iran. Russia doesn't consider the US a trustworthy deal maker, and they respond in kind. That they are willing to sacrifices human lives to do so is despicable, but hardly unique among powerful states.

selfhoster11 5y ago
> Just look at the extension of NATO, an organization explicitly considering Russia an enemy, to the East of East Germany, despite assurances from Bush to Grobachev that it would never do so. The assurances concerned non-sovereign territories of a totalitarian state. Now that these states are newly sovereign and post-Soviet (and likely still politically hostile to the idea of going back to the way things were), they are free to do whatever they choose to do. It's their right.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  No, the assurances were very explicit: NATO will not seek to expand one inch to the East. While countries are free to associate, there are obvious diplomatic costs to joining a hostile military alliance (and NATO is still explicitly hostile to Russia). The fact that Russia has a single blunt instrument that it chooses to wield in these situations is as much the fault of Russia as it is the fault of people seeking to bring hostile military bases on their borders. And again, I am fully aware of how noxious Russia is to the countries that it controls, either today or in the past. Russian influence is autocratic, corruption focused, socially conservative, and insists on Russian interests in the region before the interests of the local populace. I am under no illusions about Russia as some benevolent victim, and not trying to make any propaganda about that. But that doesn't mean we should ascribe their actions to pure malice either, as much propaganda is wont to do; nor that we should feel that much better about being under the influence of their rivals - Empires are never good, and it's always much better to be self-determined, even if at various points various empires have been better or worse in certain regions.