3 ms·

C macros did this in 1973 (48 years ago)

by mgaunard 5y ago

jayd16 5y ago
Yeah but now we can do it without having to allow macros.
- mgaunard 5y ago
  Why would you disallow a powerful and useful language feature? It's better to be practical than dogmatic.
- spaetzleesser 5y ago
  But why? What's wrong with macros? I agree that you can do stupid stuff things with macros but before disabling macros I would get rid of reflection first. With reflection you can do way more stupid things than you can do with macros.
  - moron4hire 5y ago
    Nah. Macros allow library developers to do really stupid things that can't be improved on. Reflection lets library users get around the regular stupid things library developers do.
    - spaetzleesser 5y ago
      "Reflection lets library users get around the regular stupid things library developers do." Like marking variables as private?
      - moron4hire 5y ago
        Yes, especially if that variable is an IDisposable that the library author also forgot to dispose. Like Microsoft's own System.IO.Ports.SerialPort with its underlying data stream.
        spaetzleesser 5y ago
        Why do we have things like "private" and "protected" if people can circumvent them?
        moron4hire 5y ago
        Because only a Sith deals in absolutes
stefan_ 5y ago
That's exactly the problem with C macros, they can do everything.
- wruza 5y ago
  Another problem with them is they can’t. Personally I’ve never run in a macro problem in C (and I find these abstract complaints overblown and a little parroting, but ymmw), but their power is far from absolute because it’s just a text concatenation method, not a source code or a type editing method. As an example exercise, you may try to implement: { FILE *f = fopen(…); on_leave_scope(if (f) fclose(f)); } Inability to do that, i.e. to get access to the language structure and fix it according to your convenience, combined with non-hygiene, was what led to C++ compilers and other hardcoded madness.
  - Someone 5y ago
    Not exactly that, but certainly in its spirit: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/69336050/how-to-implement-gos-defer-in-c-so-that-it-allows-declaring-vars https://stackoverflow.com/questions/69336050/how-to-implemen... Also, what some all hardcoded madness is what others call consistency across code bases.

C macros did this in 1973 (48 years ago)

jayd16 5y ago

Yeah but now we can do it without having to allow macros.

mgaunard 5y ago
Why would you disallow a powerful and useful language feature? It's better to be practical than dogmatic.
spaetzleesser 5y ago
But why? What's wrong with macros? I agree that you can do stupid stuff things with macros but before disabling macros I would get rid of reflection first. With reflection you can do way more stupid things than you can do with macros.
- moron4hire 5y ago
  Nah. Macros allow library developers to do really stupid things that can't be improved on. Reflection lets library users get around the regular stupid things library developers do.
  - spaetzleesser 5y ago
    "Reflection lets library users get around the regular stupid things library developers do." Like marking variables as private?
    - moron4hire 5y ago
      Yes, especially if that variable is an IDisposable that the library author also forgot to dispose. Like Microsoft's own System.IO.Ports.SerialPort with its underlying data stream.
      - spaetzleesser 5y ago
        Why do we have things like "private" and "protected" if people can circumvent them?
        moron4hire 5y ago
        Because only a Sith deals in absolutes

stefan_ 5y ago

That's exactly the problem with C macros, they can do everything.

wruza 5y ago
Another problem with them is they can’t. Personally I’ve never run in a macro problem in C (and I find these abstract complaints overblown and a little parroting, but ymmw), but their power is far from absolute because it’s just a text concatenation method, not a source code or a type editing method. As an example exercise, you may try to implement: { FILE *f = fopen(…); on_leave_scope(if (f) fclose(f)); } Inability to do that, i.e. to get access to the language structure and fix it according to your convenience, combined with non-hygiene, was what led to C++ compilers and other hardcoded madness.
- Someone 5y ago
  Not exactly that, but certainly in its spirit: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/69336050/how-to-implement-gos-defer-in-c-so-that-it-allows-declaring-vars https://stackoverflow.com/questions/69336050/how-to-implemen... Also, what some all hardcoded madness is what others call consistency across code bases.