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> forcing women back into work This is not what happens. No one is being "forced" to do anything. Rather, free individuals (speaking from a U.S. centric viewpo

> forcing women back into work This is not what happens. No one is being "forced" to do anything. Rather, free individuals (speaking from a U.S. centric viewpoint) make a choice to become pregnant and birth a child. It seems reasonable to me that the result of this private choice should not be the burden of others. Note that FMLA (again, U.S.-centric) grants unpaid leave. In other words, you can't be fired for certain finite length absences resulting from certain medical occurrences. But you're not entitled to payment for non-work. So, when Mom gives birth, she absolutely has the right to say, "You know what, I can't/don't want to work." She just isn't entitled to force a company to pay her for the privilege of her non-work. I may be in the minority on this, but I find it really weird how people, more and more nowadays, believe the consequences private, personal choices should be borne by everyone else. The entitlement is really hard to stomach. This idea seems to be coalescing with a belief that "stuff just happens". But the reality is, the economy–any economy–is powered by labor. People need to work. If enough people don't, we go back to the default state of reality: poverty, starvation, etc etc. > The employer gets half an employee back This is a self defeating claim. Under your (implied) proposal, the employer would just not get any employee back for an even longer period of time. Or, worse, they have to hire a temporary employee to fill in, and are now paying two sets of wages, all as a result of decisions over which they have absolutely influence!

gambiting 5y ago
>>I may be in the minority on this, but I find it really weird how people, more and more nowadays, believe the consequences private, personal choices should be borne by everyone else Starting or not starting a company is a completely private decision, yet we as a society have recognized that having entrepreneurs and a functional business culture is very important and actually profitable. So most governments, even the American ones, give grants and support to new companies to prop them up. Even though again, they are the consequence of someone's personal choice - yet the taxpayer bears the burden. Sounds familiar? Bearing children is a benefit to the society as a whole - someone has to work, someone has to pay taxes, etc etc. So as a society we support mothers by allowing them to take maternal leave, even if having a child is very much a personal choice. Also I don't see anyone advocating that companies pay mothers through entirety of maternity pay - in most countries it's the public budget that does after some short initial time period. >>People need to work. If enough people don't, we go back to the default state of reality: poverty, starvation, etc etc. And within reason, people need to have children or the country you are part of won't have enough citizens to support it within few decades - that's the reality of life.
- xibalba 5y ago
  > So most governments, even the American ones, give grants and support to new companies to prop them up To what grants, specifically, are you referring? As someone who is active in the business formation space in the U.S., I’d absolutely love to get some free capital. Humans have been giving birth since the very beginning. The phenomenon of insisting companies fund child birth is a brand new idea. As in, only the last 30 or so years. Societies have arisen and persisted since long, long before then. How is it that all of humanity managed this long without paid family leave?
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    Well for one thing contraception methods were less effective and the wage labor relation didn't exist or was wildly different for most of that time.
saiya-jin 5y ago
> It seems reasonable to me that the result of this private choice should not be the burden of others. Wow, clearly you are not a parent, and probably thats good for society. You know, parenting isn't a past time hobby of the privileged, but activity via which all of us came to existence. If we stop it, society, states and whole human civilization will collapse in 1 generation. Nobody paying for social/medical/police etc services old ass xibalba would enjoy when retired. But sure, lets maximize profits, lets raise a messed up generation with lack of strong parental touch in first years, child psychologists all agree there is no harm in that, right. I am sure that... 3%? 4%? extra income will make up for that. As much as I admire the positive aspects what makes US so great, the negative aspects are such a horrible fucked up mess I politely say 'No, thank you' anytime offer comes from across the pond. Can't imagine raising family and growing old in such system, not once I've experienced what many western Europe countries offer. Side info - recently Swiss improved paid paternal leave to 2 weeks. Just about take it off for my daughter. My company counted it into our social security dues. The added 0.05% of extra costs from each salary mean nothing, absolutely nothing, for anybody. It means the world to me. Thank you, Swiss.
- xibalba 5y ago
  How long have human societies existed? How long has the concept of paid parental leave been around? Compare those two numbers. > you are not a parent, and probably thats good for society > old ass xibalba You really undermine your credibility when you go ad hominem.
octokatt 5y ago
With compassion, may I say the following: Some pregnancies are not planned. Some sex is not consensual. Unless we have free abortions available, people with uteruses are sometimes not free to decide not to be pregnant. The decision to support pregnant people is a decision to support the baby. At some point, everyone reading this was a pregnancy, everyone reading this was helpless. One of the core functions of society is to protect helpless, young humans. Full stop. If you are under the impression society exists for a purpose other than pooling resources to protect the citizens from outside threats of hunger, violence, or famine, I urge you to reconsider. Moralizing about how better decisions should have been made is Monday-night-quarterbacking at best. The reality is there is now a small human. The small, helpless human should get the best shot we can give them, because otherwise, what the fuck are we doing. Name something we should spend money on that's more worthwhile than a helpless baby not suffering.
- xibalba 5y ago
  You’ve really bent over backwards to make this about rape, unplanned pregnancies, and abortion. I don’t disagree about abortion, per se, but it’s a separate issue.
  - octokatt 5y ago
    I respectfully disagree. For policies like the ones being discussed, assumptions are being made that everyone involved is making their own decisions. I’m refuting the claim that every pregnancy is the result of informed decisions. Other gray zones include things like “either my marriage is over or I’m going to try to get pregnant”, or even “I was told I was infertile”, because those are going to truly muddy the issue.

gambiting 5y ago

>>I may be in the minority on this, but I find it really weird how people, more and more nowadays, believe the consequences private, personal choices should be borne by everyone else Starting or not starting a company is a completely private decision, yet we as a society have recognized that having entrepreneurs and a functional business culture is very important and actually profitable. So most governments, even the American ones, give grants and support to new companies to prop them up. Even though again, they are the consequence of someone's personal choice - yet the taxpayer bears the burden. Sounds familiar? Bearing children is a benefit to the society as a whole - someone has to work, someone has to pay taxes, etc etc. So as a society we support mothers by allowing them to take maternal leave, even if having a child is very much a personal choice. Also I don't see anyone advocating that companies pay mothers through entirety of maternity pay - in most countries it's the public budget that does after some short initial time period. >>People need to work. If enough people don't, we go back to the default state of reality: poverty, starvation, etc etc. And within reason, people need to have children or the country you are part of won't have enough citizens to support it within few decades - that's the reality of life.

xibalba 5y ago
> So most governments, even the American ones, give grants and support to new companies to prop them up To what grants, specifically, are you referring? As someone who is active in the business formation space in the U.S., I’d absolutely love to get some free capital. Humans have been giving birth since the very beginning. The phenomenon of insisting companies fund child birth is a brand new idea. As in, only the last 30 or so years. Societies have arisen and persisted since long, long before then. How is it that all of humanity managed this long without paid family leave?
- emodendroket 5y ago
  Well for one thing contraception methods were less effective and the wage labor relation didn't exist or was wildly different for most of that time.

saiya-jin 5y ago

> It seems reasonable to me that the result of this private choice should not be the burden of others. Wow, clearly you are not a parent, and probably thats good for society. You know, parenting isn't a past time hobby of the privileged, but activity via which all of us came to existence. If we stop it, society, states and whole human civilization will collapse in 1 generation. Nobody paying for social/medical/police etc services old ass xibalba would enjoy when retired. But sure, lets maximize profits, lets raise a messed up generation with lack of strong parental touch in first years, child psychologists all agree there is no harm in that, right. I am sure that... 3%? 4%? extra income will make up for that. As much as I admire the positive aspects what makes US so great, the negative aspects are such a horrible fucked up mess I politely say 'No, thank you' anytime offer comes from across the pond. Can't imagine raising family and growing old in such system, not once I've experienced what many western Europe countries offer. Side info - recently Swiss improved paid paternal leave to 2 weeks. Just about take it off for my daughter. My company counted it into our social security dues. The added 0.05% of extra costs from each salary mean nothing, absolutely nothing, for anybody. It means the world to me. Thank you, Swiss.

xibalba 5y ago
How long have human societies existed? How long has the concept of paid parental leave been around? Compare those two numbers. > you are not a parent, and probably thats good for society > old ass xibalba You really undermine your credibility when you go ad hominem.

octokatt 5y ago

With compassion, may I say the following: Some pregnancies are not planned. Some sex is not consensual. Unless we have free abortions available, people with uteruses are sometimes not free to decide not to be pregnant. The decision to support pregnant people is a decision to support the baby. At some point, everyone reading this was a pregnancy, everyone reading this was helpless. One of the core functions of society is to protect helpless, young humans. Full stop. If you are under the impression society exists for a purpose other than pooling resources to protect the citizens from outside threats of hunger, violence, or famine, I urge you to reconsider. Moralizing about how better decisions should have been made is Monday-night-quarterbacking at best. The reality is there is now a small human. The small, helpless human should get the best shot we can give them, because otherwise, what the fuck are we doing. Name something we should spend money on that's more worthwhile than a helpless baby not suffering.

xibalba 5y ago
You’ve really bent over backwards to make this about rape, unplanned pregnancies, and abortion. I don’t disagree about abortion, per se, but it’s a separate issue.
- octokatt 5y ago
  I respectfully disagree. For policies like the ones being discussed, assumptions are being made that everyone involved is making their own decisions. I’m refuting the claim that every pregnancy is the result of informed decisions. Other gray zones include things like “either my marriage is over or I’m going to try to get pregnant”, or even “I was told I was infertile”, because those are going to truly muddy the issue.