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> Joseph Jordania theorizes that human intelligence preceded articulated speech Somehow I find this claim difficult to reconcile with the existence of feral ch

by jhgb 5y ago

> Joseph Jordania theorizes that human intelligence preceded articulated speech Somehow I find this claim difficult to reconcile with the existence of feral children.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Nasrudith 5y ago
While feral children are stunted they still have human level intelligence and self awareness even with understandable quirks from very different models. For lack of better words "institutional knowledge" occurs even in deer - transplants and their descendants had worse survival rates than those who had grown up there but eventually survivors "caught up". Feral children are also a real fringe case not comparable to a pre "full language" humanity as they by neccessity would still have models of learning via observation at very least. They aren't very evolutionarily significant because like other vulnerable orphaned young mammals they almost always died.
- jhgb 5y ago
  Humans are the only animals we know to be capable of reasoning, which is a necessary component for human intelligence. They're also the only animals we know to be capable of language. I don't believe that to be a coincidence. > Feral children are also a real fringe case not comparable to a pre "full language" humanity as they by neccessity would still have models of learning via observation at very least. Sure, if your definition of intelligence is broad enough, feral children might fall into it, as might many animals. Yet I suspect that this is not what wahern's "human intelligence" was about.
  - WastingMyTime89 5y ago
    > Humans are the only animals we know to be capable of reasoning Definitely not. We know of multiple other species capable of displaying abstract reasonining. That was observed in monkeys in at least 1917 and has now been confirmed with rooks and crows. > They're also the only animals we know to be capable of language. We know of multiple marine mammals which communicate.
    - jhgb 5y ago
      > We know of multiple marine mammals which communicate. Language implies communication, but communication does not imply language. So if you've only observed some communication, it's irrelevant for language. For example, languages, as opposed to non-language-based forms of communication, are characterized by having syntactic structure. As for those other species allegedly capable of abstract reasoning, I'm not quite sure how you'd conclusively discern the abstract nature from observed cases.
      - jleyank 5y ago
        Use of tools? Delayed gratification? Visual learning? Organized behaviour? And so on. There’s a neocortex in other animals and a lizard brain in humans and the latter is still prone to instinctual, non-rational action.
      - WastingMyTime89 5y ago
        > As for those other species allegedly capable of abstract reasoning, I'm not quite sure how you'd conclusively discern the abstract nature from observed cases. My native language has a proverb I find fitting to this situation: no one is more blind that the one who doesn’t want to see.
        CRConrad 5y ago
        > My native language has a proverb I find fitting to this situation: no one is more blind that the one who doesn’t want to see. I don't know where -- in which language -- that was originally coined, but nowadays it's present in many places and languages.

by jhgb 5y ago

> Joseph Jordania theorizes that human intelligence preceded articulated speech Somehow I find this claim difficult to reconcile with the existence of feral children.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Nasrudith 5y ago

While feral children are stunted they still have human level intelligence and self awareness even with understandable quirks from very different models. For lack of better words "institutional knowledge" occurs even in deer - transplants and their descendants had worse survival rates than those who had grown up there but eventually survivors "caught up". Feral children are also a real fringe case not comparable to a pre "full language" humanity as they by neccessity would still have models of learning via observation at very least. They aren't very evolutionarily significant because like other vulnerable orphaned young mammals they almost always died.

jhgb 5y ago
Humans are the only animals we know to be capable of reasoning, which is a necessary component for human intelligence. They're also the only animals we know to be capable of language. I don't believe that to be a coincidence. > Feral children are also a real fringe case not comparable to a pre "full language" humanity as they by neccessity would still have models of learning via observation at very least. Sure, if your definition of intelligence is broad enough, feral children might fall into it, as might many animals. Yet I suspect that this is not what wahern's "human intelligence" was about.
- WastingMyTime89 5y ago
  > Humans are the only animals we know to be capable of reasoning Definitely not. We know of multiple other species capable of displaying abstract reasonining. That was observed in monkeys in at least 1917 and has now been confirmed with rooks and crows. > They're also the only animals we know to be capable of language. We know of multiple marine mammals which communicate.
  - jhgb 5y ago
    > We know of multiple marine mammals which communicate. Language implies communication, but communication does not imply language. So if you've only observed some communication, it's irrelevant for language. For example, languages, as opposed to non-language-based forms of communication, are characterized by having syntactic structure. As for those other species allegedly capable of abstract reasoning, I'm not quite sure how you'd conclusively discern the abstract nature from observed cases.
    - jleyank 5y ago
      Use of tools? Delayed gratification? Visual learning? Organized behaviour? And so on. There’s a neocortex in other animals and a lizard brain in humans and the latter is still prone to instinctual, non-rational action.
    - WastingMyTime89 5y ago
      > As for those other species allegedly capable of abstract reasoning, I'm not quite sure how you'd conclusively discern the abstract nature from observed cases. My native language has a proverb I find fitting to this situation: no one is more blind that the one who doesn’t want to see.
      - CRConrad 5y ago
        > My native language has a proverb I find fitting to this situation: no one is more blind that the one who doesn’t want to see. I don't know where -- in which language -- that was originally coined, but nowadays it's present in many places and languages.