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English coffeehouses, French salons and the age of the enlightenment (2008) [pdf]

DyslexicAtheist 5y ago
for anyone interested there is a wonderful episode about how coffehouses became popular in Britain in the "In our Time" BBC podcast: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000c4x1 https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000c4x1 > Melvyn Bragg and guests discuss the history and social impact of coffee. From its origins in Ethiopia, coffea arabica spread through the Ottoman Empire before reaching Western Europe where, in the 17th century, coffee houses were becoming established. There, caffeinated customers stayed awake for longer and were more animated, and this helped to spread ideas and influence culture. Coffee became a colonial product, grown by slaves or indentured labour, with coffea robusta replacing arabica where disease had struck, and was traded extensively by the Dutch and French empires; by the 19th century, Brazil had developed into a major coffee producer, meeting demand in the USA that had grown on the waggon trails.
Daub 5y ago
Fun fact, in the excellent book ‘Daily Rituals: How Artists Work’, the word Coffee appears 78 times. That’s almost every other page.
uniqueuid 5y ago
Somewhat related: I got a completely new angle at the formative years of civic society from David Graeber's new (and last, sadly) book [1] "The Dawn of Everything". Surprisingly, there are also many enlightening bits and pieces in Hillary Mantel's collection of reviews for the LRB [2]. Plus her writing is among the most powerful I've ever read in English. [1] https://www.harvard.com/book/the_dawn_of_everything/ https://www.harvard.com/book/the_dawn_of_everything/ [2] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/oct/17/mantel-pieces-by-hilary-mantel-review-witty-and-ferocious https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/oct/17/mantel-pieces-...
sleepysysadmin 5y ago
So much focus is spent on 'enlightenment' and politics. The same time, people invented clean water. People up until this time didnt have clean water and thusly would drink beer/wine all the time. People were suddenly sober. It wasn't perfect(cholera) but add in coffee, sober + now a stimulant. Productivity took off and we started discovering as well... many social constructs dont work. The societies and communities that break with those social constructs will benefit from the greater productivity. Thus egalitarianism is born. This has been great for society. However, just as with anything, change 1 slider, affect multiple others. We are starting to discover problems with egalitarianism and nobody predicted these problems. Worse yet, these problems are severe enough and we lack any solution. The fix isnt to go back to the 1950s or earlier. So what do we do? Our current plan of do nothing also doesnt seem to work. So what in the world do we do? Did people figure out these problems long ago and egalitarianism is a trap? road to hell paved with good intentions?
- beebmam 5y ago
  I'm not sure how you mean "egalitarianism is a trap". Where does this egalitarianism exist? Wealth gaps are massive and continue to grow basically everywhere in the world. There's now a large class of people who own nothing and likely always will. Or do you mean you oppose specifically legal egalitarianism? That all people should not be equal under the law; some more equal than others?
  - sleepysysadmin 5y ago
    >I'm not sure how you mean "egalitarianism is a trap". Complicated subject to be sure. I am a through and through egalitarian. That is not to say we should have true equality. True equality is not possible. > Where does this egalitarianism exist? Legal, social, etc. Most people would agree places like Canada or Iceland or Norway are egalitarian. I suspect you're arguing from the Marxist classless society point of view. I'll let you define that if you are doing so. >Wealth gaps are massive and continue to grow basically everywhere in the world. Because of egalitarianism believe it or not. Lets look at an example. We had X amount of jobs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_force_in_the_United_States#/media/File:US_Labor_Force_Participation_Rate_by_gender.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_force_in_the_United_Stat... When women entered the workplace, those werent new jobs. Total % relatively unchanged. That means women displaced men. I think this has been great. More talented women replaced less talented men. However, what did that do? It meant for the same number of jobs, there was far more competition. Supply demand. More supply of workers, and same demand. That means the workers lose. Thus fueling inequality. >There's now a large class of people who own nothing and likely always will. https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/05/World-Poverty-Since-1820.png https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/05/World-Poverty-Sin... Not at all. We used to have 90% poverty 200 years ago. Today we're down to 10%. That's for 1 reason and only 1 reason. Capitalism. The trend is obvious as well. Way down. In fact we might expect to see capitalism spread through africa and a few other parts of the world eliminating poverty. No longer will there be people who own nothing unless they do so intentionally. >Or do you mean you oppose specifically legal egalitarianism? That all people should not be equal under the law; some more equal than others? Oh no, I dont oppose eqalitarianism in any way.

for anyone interested there is a wonderful episode about how coffehouses became popular in Britain in the "In our Time" BBC podcast: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000c4x1 https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000c4x1 > Melvyn Bragg and guests discuss the history and social impact of coffee. From its origins in Ethiopia, coffea arabica spread through the Ottoman Empire before reaching Western Europe where, in the 17th century, coffee houses were becoming established. There, caffeinated customers stayed awake for longer and were more animated, and this helped to spread ideas and influence culture. Coffee became a colonial product, grown by slaves or indentured labour, with coffea robusta replacing arabica where disease had struck, and was traded extensively by the Dutch and French empires; by the 19th century, Brazil had developed into a major coffee producer, meeting demand in the USA that had grown on the waggon trails.

Daub 5y ago

Fun fact, in the excellent book ‘Daily Rituals: How Artists Work’, the word Coffee appears 78 times. That’s almost every other page.

uniqueuid 5y ago

Somewhat related: I got a completely new angle at the formative years of civic society from David Graeber's new (and last, sadly) book [1] "The Dawn of Everything". Surprisingly, there are also many enlightening bits and pieces in Hillary Mantel's collection of reviews for the LRB [2]. Plus her writing is among the most powerful I've ever read in English. [1] https://www.harvard.com/book/the_dawn_of_everything/ https://www.harvard.com/book/the_dawn_of_everything/ [2] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/oct/17/mantel-pieces-by-hilary-mantel-review-witty-and-ferocious https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/oct/17/mantel-pieces-...

sleepysysadmin 5y ago

So much focus is spent on 'enlightenment' and politics. The same time, people invented clean water. People up until this time didnt have clean water and thusly would drink beer/wine all the time. People were suddenly sober. It wasn't perfect(cholera) but add in coffee, sober + now a stimulant. Productivity took off and we started discovering as well... many social constructs dont work. The societies and communities that break with those social constructs will benefit from the greater productivity. Thus egalitarianism is born. This has been great for society. However, just as with anything, change 1 slider, affect multiple others. We are starting to discover problems with egalitarianism and nobody predicted these problems. Worse yet, these problems are severe enough and we lack any solution. The fix isnt to go back to the 1950s or earlier. So what do we do? Our current plan of do nothing also doesnt seem to work. So what in the world do we do? Did people figure out these problems long ago and egalitarianism is a trap? road to hell paved with good intentions?

beebmam 5y ago
I'm not sure how you mean "egalitarianism is a trap". Where does this egalitarianism exist? Wealth gaps are massive and continue to grow basically everywhere in the world. There's now a large class of people who own nothing and likely always will. Or do you mean you oppose specifically legal egalitarianism? That all people should not be equal under the law; some more equal than others?
- sleepysysadmin 5y ago
  >I'm not sure how you mean "egalitarianism is a trap". Complicated subject to be sure. I am a through and through egalitarian. That is not to say we should have true equality. True equality is not possible. > Where does this egalitarianism exist? Legal, social, etc. Most people would agree places like Canada or Iceland or Norway are egalitarian. I suspect you're arguing from the Marxist classless society point of view. I'll let you define that if you are doing so. >Wealth gaps are massive and continue to grow basically everywhere in the world. Because of egalitarianism believe it or not. Lets look at an example. We had X amount of jobs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_force_in_the_United_States#/media/File:US_Labor_Force_Participation_Rate_by_gender.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_force_in_the_United_Stat... When women entered the workplace, those werent new jobs. Total % relatively unchanged. That means women displaced men. I think this has been great. More talented women replaced less talented men. However, what did that do? It meant for the same number of jobs, there was far more competition. Supply demand. More supply of workers, and same demand. That means the workers lose. Thus fueling inequality. >There's now a large class of people who own nothing and likely always will. https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/05/World-Poverty-Since-1820.png https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/05/World-Poverty-Sin... Not at all. We used to have 90% poverty 200 years ago. Today we're down to 10%. That's for 1 reason and only 1 reason. Capitalism. The trend is obvious as well. Way down. In fact we might expect to see capitalism spread through africa and a few other parts of the world eliminating poverty. No longer will there be people who own nothing unless they do so intentionally. >Or do you mean you oppose specifically legal egalitarianism? That all people should not be equal under the law; some more equal than others? Oh no, I dont oppose eqalitarianism in any way.