4 ms·

> I'd love to see this code in memory testers like memtest86 so I could send the RAM back if it ever caught a problem like this. Is this an individual stick bu

> I'd love to see this code in memory testers like memtest86 so I could send the RAM back if it ever caught a problem like this. Is this an individual stick bug, or a design bug akin to Spectre? Given that they tested 40 different sticks and seemed to find effective patterns for all of them make me think it's the latter. In which case, just return all your computers?

jandrese 5y ago
Yeah, this is a problem with high density DRAM. Fixes are possible but difficult and expensive. In the cutthroat DRAM market nobody seems willing to put in the engineering effort to develop a solution and then manufacture it. It would have to sell at a premium, in a market where it's difficult to even find ECC memory at times. The article states that ECC isn't sufficient to solve Rowhammer, but it does make the attack harder. If you are looking for a hardware solution it is your only option currently, even if it is imperfect.
- seiferteric 5y ago
  I imagine you are right that consumers don't care or know enough to put pressure on manufacturers, but what about big companies like the FANGs? Or Government agencies like NSA etc? What are they doing about it? I imagine intelligence agencies are well aware of the issue and have or are trying to get solutions to protect their own infra.
  - codetrotter 5y ago
    Off topic but shouldn’t FAANG really be referred to as MAAAN now? Google -> Alphabet Facebook -> Meta Meta, Apple, Amazon, Alphabet, Netflix. MAAAN.
    - somethingwitty1 5y ago
      Google still exists. Facebook still exists. Meta/Alphabet are mainly holding companies. For example, I received reach outs from recruiters for Google and Facebook today. Not from Meta and Alphabet. Maybe once Meta and Alphabet deliver on things and build brand recognition, it should change. Until then, I'd vote "no".
    - vidarh 5y ago
      If you're doing that: M3AN.
    - gjs278 5y ago
      faang is a stupid fucking acronym, just kill it and refer to them as nothing
    - tester756 5y ago
      I like MAGMA more
      - Tempest1981 5y ago
        Right, the idea was to swap Netflix for Microsoft, giving MAGMA or GAMMA: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29042753 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29042753
    - festkal 5y ago
      MANGA M - Meta A - Apple N - Netflix G - Google A - Amazon
      - gavinray 5y ago
        I'm now adopting this, thanks
    - daniel-thompson 5y ago
      AMANAM Apple Microsoft Amazon Netflix Alphabet Meta
    - salawat 5y ago
      Now I can add "I have never worked for the MAAAN" with pride on my business cards! Every now and again I worry I've grown up. Then I realize there is no grown up, just a Matroyshka doll of more and more eclectic subtexts
- R0b0t1 5y ago
  If you detect flips you can send it back, it's violating the advertised interface.
  - 0xffff2 5y ago
    Sure, but if it's possible to cause bit flips in basically all currently available components, then what's the point? Return all of your RAM and have a non-functional computer?
    - therein 5y ago
      Can't get bit flips on my RAM if I have no RAM.
  - ziddoap 5y ago
    So you just.. Send back all of your RAM all the time because they are all susceptible to bitflips? This is not a tenable solution.
dboreham 5y ago
It happened because at some point in the past (around 10 years ago I believe), the memory vendors decided that it was ok to design product with known "pattern sensitivity", because...I suppose they made more money that way and no customer complained loudly. Pattern sensitivity in memory chips is a very old problem, and previously was treated as a fatal design error, fixed and the affected chips used for parking lot infill. But today every chip sold is affected. Basically the same as Boeing and the MAX, just fewer people killed.
- myself248 5y ago
  > Pattern sensitivity in memory chips is a very old problem, and previously was treated as a fatal design error You seem to know more about this than I do. Where might one go to read more about this? Are there whitepapers, design docs, other resources which could be used to assert positively that the industry used to consider this a defect?

jandrese 5y ago

Yeah, this is a problem with high density DRAM. Fixes are possible but difficult and expensive. In the cutthroat DRAM market nobody seems willing to put in the engineering effort to develop a solution and then manufacture it. It would have to sell at a premium, in a market where it's difficult to even find ECC memory at times. The article states that ECC isn't sufficient to solve Rowhammer, but it does make the attack harder. If you are looking for a hardware solution it is your only option currently, even if it is imperfect.

seiferteric 5y ago
I imagine you are right that consumers don't care or know enough to put pressure on manufacturers, but what about big companies like the FANGs? Or Government agencies like NSA etc? What are they doing about it? I imagine intelligence agencies are well aware of the issue and have or are trying to get solutions to protect their own infra.
- codetrotter 5y ago
  Off topic but shouldn’t FAANG really be referred to as MAAAN now? Google -> Alphabet Facebook -> Meta Meta, Apple, Amazon, Alphabet, Netflix. MAAAN.
  - somethingwitty1 5y ago
    Google still exists. Facebook still exists. Meta/Alphabet are mainly holding companies. For example, I received reach outs from recruiters for Google and Facebook today. Not from Meta and Alphabet. Maybe once Meta and Alphabet deliver on things and build brand recognition, it should change. Until then, I'd vote "no".
  - vidarh 5y ago
    If you're doing that: M3AN.
  - gjs278 5y ago
    faang is a stupid fucking acronym, just kill it and refer to them as nothing
  - tester756 5y ago
    I like MAGMA more
    - Tempest1981 5y ago
      Right, the idea was to swap Netflix for Microsoft, giving MAGMA or GAMMA: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29042753 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29042753
  - festkal 5y ago
    MANGA M - Meta A - Apple N - Netflix G - Google A - Amazon
    - gavinray 5y ago
      I'm now adopting this, thanks
  - daniel-thompson 5y ago
    AMANAM Apple Microsoft Amazon Netflix Alphabet Meta
  - salawat 5y ago
    Now I can add "I have never worked for the MAAAN" with pride on my business cards! Every now and again I worry I've grown up. Then I realize there is no grown up, just a Matroyshka doll of more and more eclectic subtexts
R0b0t1 5y ago
If you detect flips you can send it back, it's violating the advertised interface.
- 0xffff2 5y ago
  Sure, but if it's possible to cause bit flips in basically all currently available components, then what's the point? Return all of your RAM and have a non-functional computer?
  - therein 5y ago
    Can't get bit flips on my RAM if I have no RAM.
- ziddoap 5y ago
  So you just.. Send back all of your RAM all the time because they are all susceptible to bitflips? This is not a tenable solution.

dboreham 5y ago

It happened because at some point in the past (around 10 years ago I believe), the memory vendors decided that it was ok to design product with known "pattern sensitivity", because...I suppose they made more money that way and no customer complained loudly. Pattern sensitivity in memory chips is a very old problem, and previously was treated as a fatal design error, fixed and the affected chips used for parking lot infill. But today every chip sold is affected. Basically the same as Boeing and the MAX, just fewer people killed.

myself248 5y ago
> Pattern sensitivity in memory chips is a very old problem, and previously was treated as a fatal design error You seem to know more about this than I do. Where might one go to read more about this? Are there whitepapers, design docs, other resources which could be used to assert positively that the industry used to consider this a defect?