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I spent 7 years working with C#, I like C# and I think what they’ve done in the past few years is amazing. I’m much more productive in Python. Not as in “I fee

by moksly 5y ago

I spent 7 years working with C#, I like C# and I think what they’ve done in the past few years is amazing. I’m much more productive in Python. Not as in “I feel” more productive, but as in measurably more productive. Where Python falls short of something like .Net and C# is that I probably wouldn’t have been more productive in Python if I didn’t have 7 years experience with a rather strict environment, and as far as using Python on major projects, well let’s just say that there is a reason people use TypeScript instead of JavaScript and Python doesn’t fall into that category. But for most programming and for most minor systems or services, Python is just wildly good.

harpiaharpyja 5y ago
I also spent many years working with C# before working with Python professionally. I've also spent a lot of time with Lua, though not for paid work. The second point matches my experience with dynamic languages as well. To use them well really takes a certain level of discipline, but it pays off. It's why I'm a bit skeptical of Python as a beginners language, which it sometimes has been touted as. About large projects, presently I am working with Python on a somewhat large project (currently 53k sloc, I guess large is relative). Its been great, though we are pretty strict about almost absolutely everything being type-hinted.
- goohle 5y ago
  53k SLOC is tiny project. 5 senior developers at 1k SLOC per day will generate 53k SLOC in two weeks, just one sprint.
  - mynameisash 5y ago
    How many people are writing 1k SLOC/day? And doing so consistently? If you're banging out that much code, I'd be severely concerned for the quality of the code itself as well as overall design.
    - goohle 5y ago
      Senior developers (really seniors, not 3 year seniors) can trivially produce such amount of code, because they wrote almost same code dozen times already.
      - mynameisash 5y ago
        My point isn't about who _can_ do it but who _does_. If anyone on my team was writing anywhere near 1k LOC/day, I'd think it was a serious problem. If the whole team was pumping out 1k LOC/day/person, I have to imagine I'd be getting as far away from the entire team/org as possible. Maybe not the best example, but I used to work with a guy who had pretty large scripts that he was writing for one of our projects. It turns out it was mostly copy-paste, so it sort of got the job done -- except he fixed bugs in one place but not in the other. The whole thing was a huge mess to understand and maintain. And he was a senior engineer at the time (now principal, to my great amazement).
        goohle 5y ago
        Developers at fixed-price contracts. Fast work + low number of bugs = good margin. It's exhausting, but, IMHO, it's better to work hard for 6 months and then relax for few months than to slowly push project for 2 years with red eyes and headache.
      - eesmith 5y ago
        Why are they re-writing the same code instead of re-using it? Either convert to a library, or copy&tweak the existing code. Why are they writing the same code again instead of writing different code? Why aren't they learning about new APIs for topics they aren't so experienced in? What makes them "senior developers" and not "senior transcriptionists"? Who is tasked with digging into 10 year old code, written by an ex-employee, to find a subtle bug? Who is identifying and fixing performance issues? How are these "senior developers" able to write 1KLoC/day plus documentation and developer tests? I find test code and documentation each take as much time as writing the code in the first place. Why aren't some of these senior developers producing negative LoC? https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Lines_Of_Code.txt https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Li...
okwubodu 5y ago
Same here. I do game development in C# and Python is my goto for sketching POCs for complex mechanics, despite never formally learning the language. It could easily be the difference between spending the whole day vs two hours on the same issue. > there is a reason people use TypeScript instead of JavaScript and Python doesn’t fall into that category. I thought the dynamic vs static typing debate was pointless until I joined a large Python project. Now I pretty much consider anyone that can keep up with one superhuman.
- xapata 5y ago
  I think part of the problem is that many people who are used to static type analysis get lazy with naming and interface design. Toss one of them into your team and they'll "prove" the need for static type analysis.
  - iimblack 5y ago
    Possibly. IME it’s quick Python POCs that didn’t bother with good practices that turn into critical production services without anybody going back and applying good coding standards.
    - xapata 5y ago
      That's a theme, for sure. "We don't have enough time to refactor!" is generally less true than "We need to slow down to go faster."

by moksly 5y ago

harpiaharpyja 5y ago

I also spent many years working with C# before working with Python professionally. I've also spent a lot of time with Lua, though not for paid work. The second point matches my experience with dynamic languages as well. To use them well really takes a certain level of discipline, but it pays off. It's why I'm a bit skeptical of Python as a beginners language, which it sometimes has been touted as. About large projects, presently I am working with Python on a somewhat large project (currently 53k sloc, I guess large is relative). Its been great, though we are pretty strict about almost absolutely everything being type-hinted.

goohle 5y ago
53k SLOC is tiny project. 5 senior developers at 1k SLOC per day will generate 53k SLOC in two weeks, just one sprint.
- mynameisash 5y ago
  How many people are writing 1k SLOC/day? And doing so consistently? If you're banging out that much code, I'd be severely concerned for the quality of the code itself as well as overall design.
  - goohle 5y ago
    Senior developers (really seniors, not 3 year seniors) can trivially produce such amount of code, because they wrote almost same code dozen times already.
    - mynameisash 5y ago
      My point isn't about who _can_ do it but who _does_. If anyone on my team was writing anywhere near 1k LOC/day, I'd think it was a serious problem. If the whole team was pumping out 1k LOC/day/person, I have to imagine I'd be getting as far away from the entire team/org as possible. Maybe not the best example, but I used to work with a guy who had pretty large scripts that he was writing for one of our projects. It turns out it was mostly copy-paste, so it sort of got the job done -- except he fixed bugs in one place but not in the other. The whole thing was a huge mess to understand and maintain. And he was a senior engineer at the time (now principal, to my great amazement).
      - goohle 5y ago
        Developers at fixed-price contracts. Fast work + low number of bugs = good margin. It's exhausting, but, IMHO, it's better to work hard for 6 months and then relax for few months than to slowly push project for 2 years with red eyes and headache.
    - eesmith 5y ago
      Why are they re-writing the same code instead of re-using it? Either convert to a library, or copy&tweak the existing code. Why are they writing the same code again instead of writing different code? Why aren't they learning about new APIs for topics they aren't so experienced in? What makes them "senior developers" and not "senior transcriptionists"? Who is tasked with digging into 10 year old code, written by an ex-employee, to find a subtle bug? Who is identifying and fixing performance issues? How are these "senior developers" able to write 1KLoC/day plus documentation and developer tests? I find test code and documentation each take as much time as writing the code in the first place. Why aren't some of these senior developers producing negative LoC? https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Lines_Of_Code.txt https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Li...

okwubodu 5y ago

Same here. I do game development in C# and Python is my goto for sketching POCs for complex mechanics, despite never formally learning the language. It could easily be the difference between spending the whole day vs two hours on the same issue. > there is a reason people use TypeScript instead of JavaScript and Python doesn’t fall into that category. I thought the dynamic vs static typing debate was pointless until I joined a large Python project. Now I pretty much consider anyone that can keep up with one superhuman.

xapata 5y ago
I think part of the problem is that many people who are used to static type analysis get lazy with naming and interface design. Toss one of them into your team and they'll "prove" the need for static type analysis.
- iimblack 5y ago
  Possibly. IME it’s quick Python POCs that didn’t bother with good practices that turn into critical production services without anybody going back and applying good coding standards.
  - xapata 5y ago
    That's a theme, for sure. "We don't have enough time to refactor!" is generally less true than "We need to slow down to go faster."