6 ms·

However, if nothing happens on the Bitcoin network, then the funds aren't locked down, are they? In other words, Billie has no guarantee that the key she holds

by piaste 5y ago

However, if nothing happens on the Bitcoin network, then the funds aren't locked down, are they? In other words, Billie has no guarantee that the key she holds will be valid tomorrow; Katy could empty that account at any time, and Billie would then hold nothing except the evidence of Katy's wrongdoing.

TekMol 5y ago
Katy could empty that account at any time That would be a pretty lame virtual bank then :) Realistically, the spending conditions are either limited by time. So Billie knows she needs to withdraw until a certain date or Katy could betray her. Or the spending conditions contain a punishment for betrayal. So if Katy tries to withdraw money she assigned to Billie, Billie can intervene, get her money and punish Katy.
gruez 5y ago
> However, if nothing happens on the Bitcoin network, then the funds aren't locked down, are they? they are locked down. the funds in a lightning channel are locked in a 2 of 2 multisig address, and can only be moved upon mutual consent (ie. by updating the state of the channel), or by one party after sufficient time has passed (in case of an uncooperative peer).
- zaptrem 5y ago
  Don't LN channels require a (quite expensive) transaction to open and close?
  - gruez 5y ago
    >quite expensive Are you talking about compared to regular transactions, or because network fees (per byte) are high?
  - jimmydorry 5y ago
    Quite expensive, as in $1? That $1 enables as many transactions as you want between party A and B, of which party B may have dozens of open channels with other nodes to facilitate routing from party A to C etc.
- tgb 5y ago
  Does this stop a double spend?
  - gruez 5y ago
    Yes, why wouldn't it? The funds are locked in a 2 of 2 multisig address.
    - tgb 5y ago
      I'm confused then, doesn't this still need one transaction in the block chain for every transaction?
      - HashBasher 5y ago
        No, the transaction is fully signed and can be broadcast at any time by either party to settle. It doesn't have to be broadcasted and further transactions can be done on top and they just keep it private between themselves.
        tgb 5y ago
        I'm missing how you can have a transaction that is not broadcasted but that prevents a double spend. Can't I give two different people signed transactions for the same bitcoins? How could the second recipient know I've already spent the balance on the first? Apologies for the no-doubt naive questions, it just sounds impossible.
        Jeff_Brown 5y ago
        Is it that the not-on-the-Bitcoin-blokchain account gets updated on a separate "layer 2" Blockchain that's cheaper? If so, why would that second chain stay cheaper?
        jallen_dot_dev 5y ago
        There would first be 1 broadcasted on-chain transaction setting up the channel, with X of my bitcoin and Y of your bitcoin being locked up. This prevents double spend. Then, you and I pass n signed transactions between each other updating our balances Xt & Yt for each t, t+1, ...t+n. At any time, either one of us can broadcast the final transaction with the most up to date balance and unlock the coins.
- PKop 5y ago
  What do these LN dynamics (which seem to have existed for a little while already now) have to do with Taproot? OP was describing something in the context of Taproot and now you and others are talking about Lightning. What is the new development here?
  - G3rn0ti 5y ago
    Roughly, Taproot will make Lightning Transactions much more efficient and indistinguishable from simple transactions by introducing a new „Pay-To-Taproot“ validation type. https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/bitcoin-taproot-upgrade https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/bitcoin-taproot-upgrade
  - louloulou 5y ago
    Lightning channel opens/closes are 2-of-2 multisig transactions. Taproot would make them indistinguishable from singlesig transactions.
- pkulak 5y ago
  Whoa now, how did we start talking about lightning? Has it been lightning all the time? Because that's always supported instant, near-free transactions (with a _bunch_ of problems too, that I'll not worry about).
  - kordlessagain 5y ago
    > In parallel to that, we plan to use Taproot’s new “tapleaf” script versioning scheme to implement Simplicity, our upcoming blockchain programming language. https://medium.com/blockstream/taproot-activation-enhanced-transaction-scripts-and-privacy-for-liquid-a44b060904cf https://medium.com/blockstream/taproot-activation-enhanced-t...
kordlessagain 5y ago
Bitcoin supports post dating transactions. The transaction can be updated between parties, off chain. Lightning Network. If a bad actor gets involved, the last transaction updated between both parties rules and is the remainder is refunded upon the timeout of the post dating. This function is provided by script: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script

by piaste 5y ago

TekMol 5y ago

Katy could empty that account at any time That would be a pretty lame virtual bank then :) Realistically, the spending conditions are either limited by time. So Billie knows she needs to withdraw until a certain date or Katy could betray her. Or the spending conditions contain a punishment for betrayal. So if Katy tries to withdraw money she assigned to Billie, Billie can intervene, get her money and punish Katy.

gruez 5y ago

> However, if nothing happens on the Bitcoin network, then the funds aren't locked down, are they? they are locked down. the funds in a lightning channel are locked in a 2 of 2 multisig address, and can only be moved upon mutual consent (ie. by updating the state of the channel), or by one party after sufficient time has passed (in case of an uncooperative peer).

zaptrem 5y ago
Don't LN channels require a (quite expensive) transaction to open and close?
- gruez 5y ago
  >quite expensive Are you talking about compared to regular transactions, or because network fees (per byte) are high?
- jimmydorry 5y ago
  Quite expensive, as in $1? That $1 enables as many transactions as you want between party A and B, of which party B may have dozens of open channels with other nodes to facilitate routing from party A to C etc.
tgb 5y ago
Does this stop a double spend?
- gruez 5y ago
  Yes, why wouldn't it? The funds are locked in a 2 of 2 multisig address.
  - tgb 5y ago
    I'm confused then, doesn't this still need one transaction in the block chain for every transaction?
    - HashBasher 5y ago
      No, the transaction is fully signed and can be broadcast at any time by either party to settle. It doesn't have to be broadcasted and further transactions can be done on top and they just keep it private between themselves.
      - tgb 5y ago
        I'm missing how you can have a transaction that is not broadcasted but that prevents a double spend. Can't I give two different people signed transactions for the same bitcoins? How could the second recipient know I've already spent the balance on the first? Apologies for the no-doubt naive questions, it just sounds impossible.
        Jeff_Brown 5y ago
        Is it that the not-on-the-Bitcoin-blokchain account gets updated on a separate "layer 2" Blockchain that's cheaper? If so, why would that second chain stay cheaper?
        jallen_dot_dev 5y ago
        There would first be 1 broadcasted on-chain transaction setting up the channel, with X of my bitcoin and Y of your bitcoin being locked up. This prevents double spend. Then, you and I pass n signed transactions between each other updating our balances Xt & Yt for each t, t+1, ...t+n. At any time, either one of us can broadcast the final transaction with the most up to date balance and unlock the coins.
PKop 5y ago
What do these LN dynamics (which seem to have existed for a little while already now) have to do with Taproot? OP was describing something in the context of Taproot and now you and others are talking about Lightning. What is the new development here?
- G3rn0ti 5y ago
  Roughly, Taproot will make Lightning Transactions much more efficient and indistinguishable from simple transactions by introducing a new „Pay-To-Taproot“ validation type. https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/bitcoin-taproot-upgrade https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/bitcoin-taproot-upgrade
- louloulou 5y ago
  Lightning channel opens/closes are 2-of-2 multisig transactions. Taproot would make them indistinguishable from singlesig transactions.
pkulak 5y ago
Whoa now, how did we start talking about lightning? Has it been lightning all the time? Because that's always supported instant, near-free transactions (with a _bunch_ of problems too, that I'll not worry about).
- kordlessagain 5y ago
  > In parallel to that, we plan to use Taproot’s new “tapleaf” script versioning scheme to implement Simplicity, our upcoming blockchain programming language. https://medium.com/blockstream/taproot-activation-enhanced-transaction-scripts-and-privacy-for-liquid-a44b060904cf https://medium.com/blockstream/taproot-activation-enhanced-t...

kordlessagain 5y ago

Bitcoin supports post dating transactions. The transaction can be updated between parties, off chain. Lightning Network. If a bad actor gets involved, the last transaction updated between both parties rules and is the remainder is refunded upon the timeout of the post dating. This function is provided by script: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script