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Bicycle gear shifting technology has come a long way since then, with very reliable, even electronic systems. But we're still messing with dirty, grubby chains

Bicycle gear shifting technology has come a long way since then, with very reliable, even electronic systems. But we're still messing with dirty, grubby chains that need to be maintained properly and are worn out after 5000km at best. I think that the bicycle drivetrain is quite rife for disruption. Someone has yet to solve the problem of efficiency - a new drivetrain is supposed to have less than 1% power loss. But a new concept could really change the entire industry, and it's quite a big industry.

1-more 5y ago
I just waxed my chain this morning. I hear it makes you way less prone to picking up road grit. Will report back.
- 1-more 5y ago
  Why aren't chains sold with wax on them?? This is so much better!!
top_sigrid 5y ago
Totally agree. Drive belts are becoming a thing more and more, which I would deem to be a disruption. Far less maintainence is needed, no oil involved, no chain links, they last way longer than chains etc. But these obviously only work on single speeds or enclosed-gear hubs. For derailleur-style gearing a change away from chains with the properties you described would actually really be a good thing, although I do not see it coming. With regards to power loss, chains get better and better, though.
- jgys 5y ago
  They also only work with frames that have been specially designed to allow fitting a belt, as I understand it. Chains can be easily broken and joined in the shop (or even on the roadside), but not so with belts, so the frame must come apart to get the belt going through the rear triangle, which substantially complicates frame building and design. I don't mean to suggest this tradeoff isn't worthwhile to people who want clean, low-maintenance bicycle drivetrains for working or commuting, but the extra cost of manufacturing makes it harder to persuade cost-conscious consumers.
  - usrusr 5y ago
    These days you have Veer who offer a split belt that unlike the closed loop Gates belt can also be used with closed frames. But they still need to be manufactured to a specific length, unlike chains which are sold one size easily adjusted to all.
  - top_sigrid 5y ago
    This is true and a good point, but: It is hopefully only a matter of time until belts can also be joined and opened. Veers split belt [1] system already does this, hopefully this becomes more common, so the need for a belt specific bike-frame disappears. - [1] https://www.veercycle.com/products/split-belt-pro https://www.veercycle.com/products/split-belt-pro Edit: As pointed out in another comment, the fixed size of a belt remains though, unlike with a chain.
- Cockbrand 5y ago
  Absolutely! For commuter bikes, a belt drive is fantastic in it being very clean and low maintenance. And it's amazing how smooth the ride feels compared to a chain drive. But as you said, it's either single speed or has a gear hub with less efficiency.
  - dont__panic 5y ago
    And for touring as well -- nothing like completely eliminating chain lube and cleaning equipment from your panniers. Plus, drive belts last something like 10-20k miles, so the price difference quickly pays off. Plus you don't have to worry about anything snagging on and breaking a derailleur, and belts work better in cold conditions, too. I see them as the drivetrain equivalent of disc brakes -- sure, rim brakes are still around. But the tradeoffs are so worthwhile that you effectively can't buy a high-end bike with rim brakes any more (disclaimer: I know that certain touring bikes come with cantis by default, but they're rarer and rarer each year). The only difference I see is that internal shifter hubs can cost 5-10% efficiency compared to derailleurs. In the commuting and touring communities, that's no big deal -- it's comparable to dynamo loss, which is considered a totally acceptable tradeoff for always-on lights in those communities. But in the racing community, chains will probably stick around for a long time, at least until internal hubs lose that efficiency loss. There's just too much to lose in that 5-10% for racers, even if it's totally worth it for me.
gertrunde 5y ago
I recall reading about https://www.ceramicspeed.com https://www.ceramicspeed.com a few years back, which sounds a bit like what you're describing, but I've no idea how much it has/hasn't taken off.
- Cockbrand 5y ago
  I've seen this, but while I muchly appreciate the creativity and engineering effort, it doesn't seem sturdy enough to be practical. Also, it's huge and still very exposed. It might even in its current incarnation be feasible on a road bike, but surely not on an MTB or gravel bike which may become dirty and muddy. The website seems not to have been updated since 2019, so I assume development is at least on a hiatus, if it hasn't ceased at all: https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/d3 https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/d3
  - selectodude 5y ago
    I found a link from 2021 essentially saying they've gone nowhere since 2019. https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ceramicspeed-driven-opens-up-to-crowfunded-investing-as-it-splits-from-ceramicspeed/ https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ceramicspeed-driven-opens-u...
xadhominemx 5y ago
It’s not going to happen. Bicycle drivetrains are a very simple system and the engineering is very mature. The trade offs of alternative systems are well understood and have been for decades. Most innovation these days is finding ways to reduce the cost of well understood means of improving efficiency, eg reducing mass.
- toqy 5y ago
  I was looking at one of these[1], which is both more complex and heavier. I liked the idea of it being potentially lower maintenance though, and just the cool factor of having something unusual. 1. https://www.prioritybicycles.com/products/the600 https://www.prioritybicycles.com/products/the600
mitchbob 5y ago
With a chain case that fully encloses the chain to keep it clean together with an oil bath to keep it lubed, a conventional bicycle chain can last almost forever. But as it's been done in the past, this approach adds quite a bit of weight and makes getting off the rear wheel to repair flats and replace tires much harder. If there's a way to keep the good parts of this and address the shortcomings, it would be real progress.
- analog31 5y ago
  In addition, if you have an old Sturmey Archer hub, it automatically lubricates the chain by leaking oil. I've thought about how to make a modern practical chain case.
SavantIdiot 5y ago
A company called "Dana" made crank-mounted 10-speed internal transmissions for bikes in the 60's and 70's. They also had a 3-speed that was more popular. I had an opportunity to work on one in the early 80's, similar to the one pictured in Fred DeLong's seminal book on bicycle repair. It weighed a ton and was extremely labor intensive. Granted, we have access to better materials today, but the cost/complexity cannot compete with the weight, simplicity, and rapid repairability of chain+derailleurs.
makeitdouble 5y ago
> chains that need to be maintained properly and are worn out after 5000km at best IMO this is a big industry for mainly because cheap bicycles are available at large scale. You can buy one at any shopping mall for a very low price, and a lot of users will prefer cheap vs durable/fast/light/advanced/fancy. As a sign of this, a ton of bicycles have very crappy brakes, little to no gear management, dynamo lights that have abysmal efficiency in exchange for no battery management. This part of the market will only be disrupted by cheaper technology, and I'm not sure it will happen anytime soon. Enthusiast market is more open to disruption and accept better designs, though a significant slice of it does maintenance themselves and it's tougher to sell them complex and/or hard to handle parts for only marginal effects (we see that in the tubeless vs classic tires for instance)

1-more 5y ago

I just waxed my chain this morning. I hear it makes you way less prone to picking up road grit. Will report back.

1-more 5y ago
Why aren't chains sold with wax on them?? This is so much better!!

top_sigrid 5y ago

Totally agree. Drive belts are becoming a thing more and more, which I would deem to be a disruption. Far less maintainence is needed, no oil involved, no chain links, they last way longer than chains etc. But these obviously only work on single speeds or enclosed-gear hubs. For derailleur-style gearing a change away from chains with the properties you described would actually really be a good thing, although I do not see it coming. With regards to power loss, chains get better and better, though.

jgys 5y ago
They also only work with frames that have been specially designed to allow fitting a belt, as I understand it. Chains can be easily broken and joined in the shop (or even on the roadside), but not so with belts, so the frame must come apart to get the belt going through the rear triangle, which substantially complicates frame building and design. I don't mean to suggest this tradeoff isn't worthwhile to people who want clean, low-maintenance bicycle drivetrains for working or commuting, but the extra cost of manufacturing makes it harder to persuade cost-conscious consumers.
- usrusr 5y ago
  These days you have Veer who offer a split belt that unlike the closed loop Gates belt can also be used with closed frames. But they still need to be manufactured to a specific length, unlike chains which are sold one size easily adjusted to all.
- top_sigrid 5y ago
  This is true and a good point, but: It is hopefully only a matter of time until belts can also be joined and opened. Veers split belt [1] system already does this, hopefully this becomes more common, so the need for a belt specific bike-frame disappears. - [1] https://www.veercycle.com/products/split-belt-pro https://www.veercycle.com/products/split-belt-pro Edit: As pointed out in another comment, the fixed size of a belt remains though, unlike with a chain.
Cockbrand 5y ago
Absolutely! For commuter bikes, a belt drive is fantastic in it being very clean and low maintenance. And it's amazing how smooth the ride feels compared to a chain drive. But as you said, it's either single speed or has a gear hub with less efficiency.
- dont__panic 5y ago
  And for touring as well -- nothing like completely eliminating chain lube and cleaning equipment from your panniers. Plus, drive belts last something like 10-20k miles, so the price difference quickly pays off. Plus you don't have to worry about anything snagging on and breaking a derailleur, and belts work better in cold conditions, too. I see them as the drivetrain equivalent of disc brakes -- sure, rim brakes are still around. But the tradeoffs are so worthwhile that you effectively can't buy a high-end bike with rim brakes any more (disclaimer: I know that certain touring bikes come with cantis by default, but they're rarer and rarer each year). The only difference I see is that internal shifter hubs can cost 5-10% efficiency compared to derailleurs. In the commuting and touring communities, that's no big deal -- it's comparable to dynamo loss, which is considered a totally acceptable tradeoff for always-on lights in those communities. But in the racing community, chains will probably stick around for a long time, at least until internal hubs lose that efficiency loss. There's just too much to lose in that 5-10% for racers, even if it's totally worth it for me.

gertrunde 5y ago

I recall reading about https://www.ceramicspeed.com https://www.ceramicspeed.com a few years back, which sounds a bit like what you're describing, but I've no idea how much it has/hasn't taken off.

Cockbrand 5y ago
I've seen this, but while I muchly appreciate the creativity and engineering effort, it doesn't seem sturdy enough to be practical. Also, it's huge and still very exposed. It might even in its current incarnation be feasible on a road bike, but surely not on an MTB or gravel bike which may become dirty and muddy. The website seems not to have been updated since 2019, so I assume development is at least on a hiatus, if it hasn't ceased at all: https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/d3 https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycling/d3
- selectodude 5y ago
  I found a link from 2021 essentially saying they've gone nowhere since 2019. https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ceramicspeed-driven-opens-up-to-crowfunded-investing-as-it-splits-from-ceramicspeed/ https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ceramicspeed-driven-opens-u...

xadhominemx 5y ago

It’s not going to happen. Bicycle drivetrains are a very simple system and the engineering is very mature. The trade offs of alternative systems are well understood and have been for decades. Most innovation these days is finding ways to reduce the cost of well understood means of improving efficiency, eg reducing mass.

toqy 5y ago
I was looking at one of these[1], which is both more complex and heavier. I liked the idea of it being potentially lower maintenance though, and just the cool factor of having something unusual. 1. https://www.prioritybicycles.com/products/the600 https://www.prioritybicycles.com/products/the600

mitchbob 5y ago

With a chain case that fully encloses the chain to keep it clean together with an oil bath to keep it lubed, a conventional bicycle chain can last almost forever. But as it's been done in the past, this approach adds quite a bit of weight and makes getting off the rear wheel to repair flats and replace tires much harder. If there's a way to keep the good parts of this and address the shortcomings, it would be real progress.

analog31 5y ago
In addition, if you have an old Sturmey Archer hub, it automatically lubricates the chain by leaking oil. I've thought about how to make a modern practical chain case.

SavantIdiot 5y ago

A company called "Dana" made crank-mounted 10-speed internal transmissions for bikes in the 60's and 70's. They also had a 3-speed that was more popular. I had an opportunity to work on one in the early 80's, similar to the one pictured in Fred DeLong's seminal book on bicycle repair. It weighed a ton and was extremely labor intensive. Granted, we have access to better materials today, but the cost/complexity cannot compete with the weight, simplicity, and rapid repairability of chain+derailleurs.

makeitdouble 5y ago

> chains that need to be maintained properly and are worn out after 5000km at best IMO this is a big industry for mainly because cheap bicycles are available at large scale. You can buy one at any shopping mall for a very low price, and a lot of users will prefer cheap vs durable/fast/light/advanced/fancy. As a sign of this, a ton of bicycles have very crappy brakes, little to no gear management, dynamo lights that have abysmal efficiency in exchange for no battery management. This part of the market will only be disrupted by cheaper technology, and I'm not sure it will happen anytime soon. Enthusiast market is more open to disruption and accept better designs, though a significant slice of it does maintenance themselves and it's tougher to sell them complex and/or hard to handle parts for only marginal effects (we see that in the tubeless vs classic tires for instance)