5 ms·

> Given that _every_ other "civilised" country has some sort of rudimentary care for new parents, which doesn't acutally cost that much, I can't see any reasona

by bko 5y ago

> Given that _every_ other "civilised" country has some sort of rudimentary care for new parents, which doesn't acutally cost that much, I can't see any reasonable objection to not having it. Giving a special benefit that will for the most part only be exercised by women discourages hiring women. You can still think its worth it, but don't pretend like you're baffled by anyone who would object or question how this impacts women.

lotsofpulp 5y ago
This graph shows the gender pay gap trending down in the UK since they implemented parental leave: https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/genderpaygapintheuk/2020 https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor... This graph shows women's employment rate trending up in the UK: https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/timeseries/lf25/lms https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor...
- bko 5y ago
  Policy changes don't exist in a vacuum. I'm not interested in studies that show something. I'm interested in a mental model that results in employers being indifferent to hiring men or women when statistically women are much more likely to take a considerable amount of paid time off with restrictions set on replacing them. The model could be that employers are altruistic. Or that employers are dumb and don't realize this. Or they're sufficiently compelled by the law and the penalties and enforcement are strict enough. And your model also has to account for the system not being a closed system. For instance, its not enough that all employers are altruistic, but any prospective employers that could enter the market would similarly be altruistic. Again, it could be worth it, but don't pretend that there's no disincentive by this policy.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    >I'm not interested in studies that show something. An interesting way to think, to say the least.
  - KaiserPro 5y ago
    This isn't a model. its not a study, its a metric collected from the UK for the last 20 years. The arguments for "not hiring women because they'll just go and get pregnant" have largely been settled in the UK. shared parental leave is a thing, its just what happens. Employers that don't facilitate it are punished, either by employment tribunal, or people leaving to join somewhere that does.
    - bko 5y ago
      > This isn't a model. its not a study, its a metric collected from the UK for the last 20 years. And absolutely nothing else changed in the UK in the last 20 years that may affect this number? Logic would tell you the disincentive exists. Looking at aggregate country data over 20 years doesn't tell you anything about a single policy. > Employers that don't facilitate it are punished, either by employment tribunal, or people leaving to join somewhere that does. That's a lot of employers to keep track of. In terms of people leaving for jobs that do offer paid parental leave only works for those wishing to take parental leave. If someone does not wish to have children, she would be willing to take a higher salary in lieu of a company that provides generous parental leave.
      - fisherjeff 5y ago
        Hmmm, so it seems like the signal we'd expect to see in the time series data is either (1) tiny, and completely buried in the noise, or (2) as you suggest, is large but more than completely canceled out by some other, unnamed, contemporaneous signal(s). Either way, seems like a net win for women!
      - m4x 5y ago
        > And absolutely nothing else changed in the UK in the last 20 years that may affect this number? Explain why this matters? The data demonstrates that you can increase parental leave while also reducing employment discrimination and improving conditions. That's the real world outcome. > Logic would tell you the disincentive exists. Surely logic would tell you to give more weight to real world outcomes than to imagined mental models about how others "should" behave? I'd question why you think people should think that way in the first place.
  - yardie 5y ago
    > I'm not interested in studies that show something. The study doesn't agree with how I believe the world works so therefore they must be wrong.
  - SamBam 5y ago
    > The model could be that employers are altruistic. Or that employers are dumb and don't realize this. It's telling that your only conclusion for why companies could possibly continue to hire women is that they must be stupid or chivalrous.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    > I'm not interested in studies that show something. I'm interested in a mental model [...] So you're interested in theory, not reality?
- yokoprime 5y ago
  So we're just throwing out random graphs and assuming causality? How about stork population vs birthrate?
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    I am not assuming causality. See this comment for explanation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29230197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29230197
TheAceOfHearts 5y ago
Agreed, this sounds like a very good reason to ensure parental leave is available for both men and women.
- fileeditview 5y ago
  It's like that here in Germany. It's a little more complicated but in the end mom and dad can split up to 14 months of paid parental leave time where no one can take more than 12 months. Now the pay does not replace a full salary of course. It is a percentage of your pay up to a maximum of 1800€. I know many dads (myself included) that have used this program.
  - MandieD 5y ago
    It’s one of my favorite things about Germany. Here in (relatively) socially conservative greater Nuremberg, the split tends to be 12 months Mom, two months Dad, with Dad taking a month right after birth, and another when Mom goes back to work, but that “max 12 months of 14” pushes a lot of dads to take those two months. Since the pay is capped at 1800, I know a few fathers who didn’t take even their two months because they were living at the edge of their paychecks (yes, it’s possible to live a little too large anywhere, and Germans aren’t immune), and one mother who went back to work at the end of the eight weeks post-birth that we’re absolutely forbidden to work (but are paid quite close to our pre-maternal net pay) because she was the primary earner. It’s also rougher on single mothers than partnered ones, of course, but at least isn’t as harsh for them here as it is back in the US, and for low earners, 2/3 of your previous net + 200 child benefit is not much less than net + child care (subsidized for big earners, highly subsidized for lower earners) + general costs of working. “But you could have saved even more than that over the past few years if you didn’t have to pay really high German income taxes!” Yes, we certainly could have, and would have, given our behavior even with taxes the way they are. However… Most people wouldn’t/couldn’t, and because the benefit is so widespread, employers expect you’ll take it and have policies in place to accommodate it. The fact that a maternity year is normal makes it less of a career risk, and the same with several months away for fathers.
- kgwgk 5y ago
Fire-Dragon-DoL 5y ago
Give the benefits to dads too. 4 weeks for the first kid is challenging. It could be different for 2+ kids, but remember that every child has a few complications when they are born, that. Fade away after a while.
- OJFord 5y ago
  It is in the UK, or rather it's given to both, and up to them how they split it.
elzbardico 5y ago
Yeah, sure. Only the american libertarian knows how things really work. All those other countries are stupid, and because of their stupidity, look at them, all the women are out of the labor market.
KaiserPro 5y ago
So UK maternity leave is shared. Its a year with 6 months "pay" How its taken is up to the parents. The people that I know who've taken it have split it fairly evenly. (I know I know sample size.) I did not take any, as I was not eligible at the time. As someone who does a lot of recruiting, I don't think "hmm I'm going to have to pay this woman for mat leave" because frankly that's bollocks, who knows who's going to be here for six months, 1 year or 8? From a purely business point of view, the women that have come back from maternity are normally bargains. They don't ask for more pay, they are flexible and are loyal, assuming we have made the correct allowances for being parents. also being a parent in tech allows people to deal much better with the toddler tantrums/playground fights that seem to be common in this industry.
- er4hn 5y ago
  > also being a parent in tech allows people to deal much better with the toddler tantrums/playground fights that seem to be common in this industry. An insight that comes from a place of being forced to be more mature yourself. Well said!
- MandieD 5y ago
  Solid parenting advice, or a consulting technique: the “wish list” from “How to talk so kids will listen, how to listen so kids will talk”, or putting something that seems ridiculous into the backlog to keep the meeting moving. Wonderful comment that brought this book and idea to my attention: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27468582 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27468582
timssopomo 5y ago
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.TLF.CACT.FE.ZS?view=map https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.TLF.CACT.FE.ZS?view=... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap#/media/File:OECD_gender_wage_gap.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap#/media/File:OEC... Seems like countries with paid leave have comparable or higher rates of labor participation and (on average) lower gender pay gap.
Viliam1234 5y ago
Maternity/parental leave is typically paid by the state, not by the employers. If both parents can take a leave, then it does not discourage hiring women.

by bko 5y ago

lotsofpulp 5y ago

This graph shows the gender pay gap trending down in the UK since they implemented parental leave: https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/genderpaygapintheuk/2020 https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor... This graph shows women's employment rate trending up in the UK: https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/timeseries/lf25/lms https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor...

bko 5y ago
Policy changes don't exist in a vacuum. I'm not interested in studies that show something. I'm interested in a mental model that results in employers being indifferent to hiring men or women when statistically women are much more likely to take a considerable amount of paid time off with restrictions set on replacing them. The model could be that employers are altruistic. Or that employers are dumb and don't realize this. Or they're sufficiently compelled by the law and the penalties and enforcement are strict enough. And your model also has to account for the system not being a closed system. For instance, its not enough that all employers are altruistic, but any prospective employers that could enter the market would similarly be altruistic. Again, it could be worth it, but don't pretend that there's no disincentive by this policy.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  >I'm not interested in studies that show something. An interesting way to think, to say the least.
- KaiserPro 5y ago
  This isn't a model. its not a study, its a metric collected from the UK for the last 20 years. The arguments for "not hiring women because they'll just go and get pregnant" have largely been settled in the UK. shared parental leave is a thing, its just what happens. Employers that don't facilitate it are punished, either by employment tribunal, or people leaving to join somewhere that does.
  - bko 5y ago
    > This isn't a model. its not a study, its a metric collected from the UK for the last 20 years. And absolutely nothing else changed in the UK in the last 20 years that may affect this number? Logic would tell you the disincentive exists. Looking at aggregate country data over 20 years doesn't tell you anything about a single policy. > Employers that don't facilitate it are punished, either by employment tribunal, or people leaving to join somewhere that does. That's a lot of employers to keep track of. In terms of people leaving for jobs that do offer paid parental leave only works for those wishing to take parental leave. If someone does not wish to have children, she would be willing to take a higher salary in lieu of a company that provides generous parental leave.
    - fisherjeff 5y ago
      Hmmm, so it seems like the signal we'd expect to see in the time series data is either (1) tiny, and completely buried in the noise, or (2) as you suggest, is large but more than completely canceled out by some other, unnamed, contemporaneous signal(s). Either way, seems like a net win for women!
    - m4x 5y ago
      > And absolutely nothing else changed in the UK in the last 20 years that may affect this number? Explain why this matters? The data demonstrates that you can increase parental leave while also reducing employment discrimination and improving conditions. That's the real world outcome. > Logic would tell you the disincentive exists. Surely logic would tell you to give more weight to real world outcomes than to imagined mental models about how others "should" behave? I'd question why you think people should think that way in the first place.
- yardie 5y ago
  > I'm not interested in studies that show something. The study doesn't agree with how I believe the world works so therefore they must be wrong.
- SamBam 5y ago
  > The model could be that employers are altruistic. Or that employers are dumb and don't realize this. It's telling that your only conclusion for why companies could possibly continue to hire women is that they must be stupid or chivalrous.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  > I'm not interested in studies that show something. I'm interested in a mental model [...] So you're interested in theory, not reality?
yokoprime 5y ago
So we're just throwing out random graphs and assuming causality? How about stork population vs birthrate?
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  I am not assuming causality. See this comment for explanation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29230197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29230197

TheAceOfHearts 5y ago

Agreed, this sounds like a very good reason to ensure parental leave is available for both men and women.

fileeditview 5y ago
It's like that here in Germany. It's a little more complicated but in the end mom and dad can split up to 14 months of paid parental leave time where no one can take more than 12 months. Now the pay does not replace a full salary of course. It is a percentage of your pay up to a maximum of 1800€. I know many dads (myself included) that have used this program.
- MandieD 5y ago
  It’s one of my favorite things about Germany. Here in (relatively) socially conservative greater Nuremberg, the split tends to be 12 months Mom, two months Dad, with Dad taking a month right after birth, and another when Mom goes back to work, but that “max 12 months of 14” pushes a lot of dads to take those two months. Since the pay is capped at 1800, I know a few fathers who didn’t take even their two months because they were living at the edge of their paychecks (yes, it’s possible to live a little too large anywhere, and Germans aren’t immune), and one mother who went back to work at the end of the eight weeks post-birth that we’re absolutely forbidden to work (but are paid quite close to our pre-maternal net pay) because she was the primary earner. It’s also rougher on single mothers than partnered ones, of course, but at least isn’t as harsh for them here as it is back in the US, and for low earners, 2/3 of your previous net + 200 child benefit is not much less than net + child care (subsidized for big earners, highly subsidized for lower earners) + general costs of working. “But you could have saved even more than that over the past few years if you didn’t have to pay really high German income taxes!” Yes, we certainly could have, and would have, given our behavior even with taxes the way they are. However… Most people wouldn’t/couldn’t, and because the benefit is so widespread, employers expect you’ll take it and have policies in place to accommodate it. The fact that a maternity year is normal makes it less of a career risk, and the same with several months away for fathers.
kgwgk 5y ago

Fire-Dragon-DoL 5y ago

Give the benefits to dads too. 4 weeks for the first kid is challenging. It could be different for 2+ kids, but remember that every child has a few complications when they are born, that. Fade away after a while.

OJFord 5y ago
It is in the UK, or rather it's given to both, and up to them how they split it.

elzbardico 5y ago

Yeah, sure. Only the american libertarian knows how things really work. All those other countries are stupid, and because of their stupidity, look at them, all the women are out of the labor market.

KaiserPro 5y ago

So UK maternity leave is shared. Its a year with 6 months "pay" How its taken is up to the parents. The people that I know who've taken it have split it fairly evenly. (I know I know sample size.) I did not take any, as I was not eligible at the time. As someone who does a lot of recruiting, I don't think "hmm I'm going to have to pay this woman for mat leave" because frankly that's bollocks, who knows who's going to be here for six months, 1 year or 8? From a purely business point of view, the women that have come back from maternity are normally bargains. They don't ask for more pay, they are flexible and are loyal, assuming we have made the correct allowances for being parents. also being a parent in tech allows people to deal much better with the toddler tantrums/playground fights that seem to be common in this industry.

er4hn 5y ago
> also being a parent in tech allows people to deal much better with the toddler tantrums/playground fights that seem to be common in this industry. An insight that comes from a place of being forced to be more mature yourself. Well said!
MandieD 5y ago
Solid parenting advice, or a consulting technique: the “wish list” from “How to talk so kids will listen, how to listen so kids will talk”, or putting something that seems ridiculous into the backlog to keep the meeting moving. Wonderful comment that brought this book and idea to my attention: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27468582 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27468582

timssopomo 5y ago

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.TLF.CACT.FE.ZS?view=map https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.TLF.CACT.FE.ZS?view=... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap#/media/File:OECD_gender_wage_gap.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap#/media/File:OEC... Seems like countries with paid leave have comparable or higher rates of labor participation and (on average) lower gender pay gap.

Viliam1234 5y ago

Maternity/parental leave is typically paid by the state, not by the employers. If both parents can take a leave, then it does not discourage hiring women.