4 ms·

> Depression lies to you. And, once you live with it long enough, you know it lies to you. This is why people with depression suffer, because they do not want

by podgaj 5y ago

> Depression lies to you. And, once you live with it long enough, you know it lies to you. This is why people with depression suffer, because they do not want to see the truth depression unveils. So they fight and fight and fight. Can you be ok with nothing ever bringing you happiness? I asked that question to myself, I finally said yes. It was a spiritual moment. Joy at last! No more happiness! Why do you think happiness is a truth and depression is a lie? That is only your preference.

hutzlibu 5y ago
"Can you be ok with nothing ever bringing you happiness? I asked that question to myself, I finally said yes. It was a spiritual moment. Joy at last! No more happiness" It seems like you tricked yourself, to put the pressure away of "must getting happy again" and felt the joy (which is happiness, no?) of being relieved of that stress.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  I would argue that joy and happiness are not the same thing. I have difficulty articulating it, but I think Ursula Le Guin expresses it well (because of course she does) in The Left Hand of Darkness: "I am not trying to say that I was happy, during those weeks of hauling a sledge across an ice-sheet in the dead of winter. I was hungry, overstrained, and often anxious, and it all got worse the longer it went on. I certainly wasn’t happy. Happiness has to do with reason, and only reason earns it. What I was given was the thing you can’t earn, and can’t keep, and often don’t even recognize at the time; I mean joy."
- podgaj 5y ago
  It was not a trick, it was a deep understanding that changed me permanently.
  - romwell 5y ago
    Understanding that it's OK to be broken and sad, even if it's always like that, is something everyone needs to learn, and the culture is changing to this understanding being the norm. Have you read Winnie-the-Pooh? I think the book, more so than the cartoon, reinforces that. Eeyore is perpetually and, seemingly, irreparably sad and unhappy, and yet it's just a trait that Eeyore has, not a flaw. Other characters are there for him, but his sadness is accepted. Some of us are like Eeyore; and we should treat ourselves the way Eeyore was treated by others. That lesson was, sadly, ignored.
arketyp 5y ago
Your solution is anecdotal but it does sound similar to the process described occurring in people whose depressions are cured by MDMA or psilocybin treatment. A cure induced by a staring into the abyss kind of thing.
romwell 5y ago
>Why do you think happiness is a truth and depression is a lie? My enteri point is that depression is not absence of happiness, even perpetual. >This is why people with depression suffer What makes your qualified to speak on their behalf?
- podgaj 5y ago
  I’m qualified to comment on it because I am a human, and it’s a human condition.
  - romwell 5y ago
    No credentials, then. Is it a condition that you have been diagnosed with / treated for?
    - podgaj 5y ago
      Yes. I have schizoaffective bipolar disorder, surviving with it for 45 years. 20 plus years of therapy as well. To say I have no credentials is an immature way to evaluate the knowledge of others and us a logical fallacy. For the last 10 years I have been working with UNC Medicine decoding both my own and my family’s genomics. And I have taught my self, by auditing UNC classes, in genetics, psychology, and nuerochemistry as well as nutrigenomics. I survived three suicide attempts and was hospitalized five times. The last five years I have been able to go off all my medications but one I use occasionally. I would guess it gives me some credentials but these days if it’s not a diploma on your wall you’re not worth a thing.
      - romwell 5y ago
        Lack of credentials doesn't mean lack of knowledge, but their presence is at least some signal. Your story is a stronger signal, that's why I asked about credentials or personal experience. What you wrote above puts what you say in perspective; because it adds qualifications to the statements that you make (i.e. that yes, you are not taking things out of thin air). Without your story, it's not possible to evaluate where you're coming from, and how to take what you say. Thank you for sharing your story, and sorry that the journey has not been easy. I'm glad and thankful that you made it through to this day. That said, I respectfully and strongly disagree with your assessment "this os why depressed people suffer". Perhaps it's cultural, but I'm from Eastern Europe, and happiness was never supposed to be the default; the culture is rooted in misery and suffering. The cult of happiness seems to be a Western thing, resulting in a culture of toxic positivity which is definitely not conducive to mental health. The Eastern culture of never-happiness isn't healthy either, but "the truth that depression reveals" is just the narrative of that culture — and it's just as false, and, furthermore, easily accepted. The entirety of the Russian-speaking population of former USSR starts off on the assumption that things suck and will suck forever, and do not conclude that there's nothing to live for because of that. That can't be the why. When I was at a conference in Belgium, a Polish person in the group asked me when we were coming back from a day trip to Liege: "Why are you smiling?". See, unless there's a good reason, a an outward expression of positive emotions sticks out as odd. Things are supposed to be grim. And yet neither it is depression, nor a cause of suffering. I'm also Jewish, and again, suffering and persecution is a part for the culture. My birth certificate says "Jew" (yay USSR keeping tabs on who's who!), so I have a very formal reminder of being a target for those who still look for them (as Pittsburgh has shown). My father's father went through the War being a target in much more direct way. So there was no "truth" that depression has revealed to me. If the horrendous life experiences you went through have helped you get rid of the rose-tinted glasses, well, it's not the worst side-effect. If losing them was painful, you can thank the culture for that (go figure: telling children early on that they can do anything and always succeed and be happy if they try hard enough creates some highly unreasonable expectations both internally and externally). That pain is not why people with depression suffer. That pain is why people affected by the cult of toxic positivity (aka "live, laugh, love") suffer. It just adds extra work and pain on top of dealing with depression. And yet, going through these realizations is neither the cause of depression, nor the fundamental reason of suffering. Because through all the pain and suffering, a healthy mind still sees finds something to live for, and a depressed mind does not. And while it's natural to not be sure what it is, the dead-sure confidence that there is nothing worth living for that depression gives is not "truth" in any way. If only because that's making a call about the future (i.e. that nothing going forward would be worthwhile in retrospect), but nobody can tell future for certain. Externalizing depression as an entity that's not speaking truthfully is a way to start pulling yourself out of it. You have enough resources to evaluate the above by reaching back into what you learned in psychology classes. My experience with depression has been personal — by being depressed for years, and then being in and out of depression. My understanding has been corroborated by experiences of my friends, people who talk about depression online, popular psychology, experience with therapists and coaches, and numerous bloggers and book authors who write about depression (Allie Brosh, if I had to name just one). And the consensus is universal: depression lies. PS: depression tells me that everyone hates me and that I'm worthless when I forget to eat and sleep, and suddenly it seems to not be the case after I eat and sleep. Any "truth" about the external world that depends on how full my stomach is, well, isn't truth at all, and it would be foolish to accept it as such.

by podgaj 5y ago

hutzlibu 5y ago

"Can you be ok with nothing ever bringing you happiness? I asked that question to myself, I finally said yes. It was a spiritual moment. Joy at last! No more happiness" It seems like you tricked yourself, to put the pressure away of "must getting happy again" and felt the joy (which is happiness, no?) of being relieved of that stress.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
I would argue that joy and happiness are not the same thing. I have difficulty articulating it, but I think Ursula Le Guin expresses it well (because of course she does) in The Left Hand of Darkness: "I am not trying to say that I was happy, during those weeks of hauling a sledge across an ice-sheet in the dead of winter. I was hungry, overstrained, and often anxious, and it all got worse the longer it went on. I certainly wasn’t happy. Happiness has to do with reason, and only reason earns it. What I was given was the thing you can’t earn, and can’t keep, and often don’t even recognize at the time; I mean joy."
podgaj 5y ago
It was not a trick, it was a deep understanding that changed me permanently.
- romwell 5y ago
  Understanding that it's OK to be broken and sad, even if it's always like that, is something everyone needs to learn, and the culture is changing to this understanding being the norm. Have you read Winnie-the-Pooh? I think the book, more so than the cartoon, reinforces that. Eeyore is perpetually and, seemingly, irreparably sad and unhappy, and yet it's just a trait that Eeyore has, not a flaw. Other characters are there for him, but his sadness is accepted. Some of us are like Eeyore; and we should treat ourselves the way Eeyore was treated by others. That lesson was, sadly, ignored.

arketyp 5y ago

Your solution is anecdotal but it does sound similar to the process described occurring in people whose depressions are cured by MDMA or psilocybin treatment. A cure induced by a staring into the abyss kind of thing.

romwell 5y ago

>Why do you think happiness is a truth and depression is a lie? My enteri point is that depression is not absence of happiness, even perpetual. >This is why people with depression suffer What makes your qualified to speak on their behalf?

podgaj 5y ago
I’m qualified to comment on it because I am a human, and it’s a human condition.
- romwell 5y ago
  No credentials, then. Is it a condition that you have been diagnosed with / treated for?
  - podgaj 5y ago
    Yes. I have schizoaffective bipolar disorder, surviving with it for 45 years. 20 plus years of therapy as well. To say I have no credentials is an immature way to evaluate the knowledge of others and us a logical fallacy. For the last 10 years I have been working with UNC Medicine decoding both my own and my family’s genomics. And I have taught my self, by auditing UNC classes, in genetics, psychology, and nuerochemistry as well as nutrigenomics. I survived three suicide attempts and was hospitalized five times. The last five years I have been able to go off all my medications but one I use occasionally. I would guess it gives me some credentials but these days if it’s not a diploma on your wall you’re not worth a thing.
    - romwell 5y ago
      Lack of credentials doesn't mean lack of knowledge, but their presence is at least some signal. Your story is a stronger signal, that's why I asked about credentials or personal experience. What you wrote above puts what you say in perspective; because it adds qualifications to the statements that you make (i.e. that yes, you are not taking things out of thin air). Without your story, it's not possible to evaluate where you're coming from, and how to take what you say. Thank you for sharing your story, and sorry that the journey has not been easy. I'm glad and thankful that you made it through to this day. That said, I respectfully and strongly disagree with your assessment "this os why depressed people suffer". Perhaps it's cultural, but I'm from Eastern Europe, and happiness was never supposed to be the default; the culture is rooted in misery and suffering. The cult of happiness seems to be a Western thing, resulting in a culture of toxic positivity which is definitely not conducive to mental health. The Eastern culture of never-happiness isn't healthy either, but "the truth that depression reveals" is just the narrative of that culture — and it's just as false, and, furthermore, easily accepted. The entirety of the Russian-speaking population of former USSR starts off on the assumption that things suck and will suck forever, and do not conclude that there's nothing to live for because of that. That can't be the why. When I was at a conference in Belgium, a Polish person in the group asked me when we were coming back from a day trip to Liege: "Why are you smiling?". See, unless there's a good reason, a an outward expression of positive emotions sticks out as odd. Things are supposed to be grim. And yet neither it is depression, nor a cause of suffering. I'm also Jewish, and again, suffering and persecution is a part for the culture. My birth certificate says "Jew" (yay USSR keeping tabs on who's who!), so I have a very formal reminder of being a target for those who still look for them (as Pittsburgh has shown). My father's father went through the War being a target in much more direct way. So there was no "truth" that depression has revealed to me. If the horrendous life experiences you went through have helped you get rid of the rose-tinted glasses, well, it's not the worst side-effect. If losing them was painful, you can thank the culture for that (go figure: telling children early on that they can do anything and always succeed and be happy if they try hard enough creates some highly unreasonable expectations both internally and externally). That pain is not why people with depression suffer. That pain is why people affected by the cult of toxic positivity (aka "live, laugh, love") suffer. It just adds extra work and pain on top of dealing with depression. And yet, going through these realizations is neither the cause of depression, nor the fundamental reason of suffering. Because through all the pain and suffering, a healthy mind still sees finds something to live for, and a depressed mind does not. And while it's natural to not be sure what it is, the dead-sure confidence that there is nothing worth living for that depression gives is not "truth" in any way. If only because that's making a call about the future (i.e. that nothing going forward would be worthwhile in retrospect), but nobody can tell future for certain. Externalizing depression as an entity that's not speaking truthfully is a way to start pulling yourself out of it. You have enough resources to evaluate the above by reaching back into what you learned in psychology classes. My experience with depression has been personal — by being depressed for years, and then being in and out of depression. My understanding has been corroborated by experiences of my friends, people who talk about depression online, popular psychology, experience with therapists and coaches, and numerous bloggers and book authors who write about depression (Allie Brosh, if I had to name just one). And the consensus is universal: depression lies. PS: depression tells me that everyone hates me and that I'm worthless when I forget to eat and sleep, and suddenly it seems to not be the case after I eat and sleep. Any "truth" about the external world that depends on how full my stomach is, well, isn't truth at all, and it would be foolish to accept it as such.