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one of the more recent developments is combining a rear derailleur with a internal gear hub (both electronically and wirelessly shifted) and a single front chai

by stefs 5y ago

one of the more recent developments is combining a rear derailleur with a internal gear hub (both electronically and wirelessly shifted) and a single front chainring. some upsides, some downsides, but definitely something to watch.

mcntsh 5y ago
Actually, internal gear hubs predate the derailer system, but in the past 20 years IGHs have gotten much better and are making a come back.
- stefs 5y ago
  yes, i meant combining an IGH with a rear derailer (instead of a front derailer). afaik there's only one supplier of those currently (and the system is a bit half-baked, i.e. no DI2 compatibility for reusing the existing shifters).
- hocuspocus 5y ago
  The biggest issue is the complexity, weight and poor efficiency compared to a derailleur. And also fewer and unevenly graded gears, though that's probably less true with Pinion hubs. It's not that hard to avoid shifting under heavy load (higher-end IGHs shift fine under some load). And on a commuter bike, being able to shift gears at a standstill is great. Edit: you completely changed the content of your message and my reply doesn't make a lot of sense now.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Both Rohloff and Shimano have been making pretty sturdy internal gear hubs for a long time, efficiency is fantastic. Ditto for the venerable Sturmey Archer internal gear hub, which goes back to the dark ages. Efficiency sucks for the continuous variable kind, like the Enviolo and other variations on that theme.
    - hocuspocus 5y ago
      With the Shimano 8 and 11 speed hubs you can tell that some gears have a poor efficiency, it's really noticeable! Apparently the Pinion and Rohloff fare better: https://bikeshed.johnhoogstrate.nl/bicycle/drivetrain/shimano_alfine_inter_11/#efficiency https://bikeshed.johnhoogstrate.nl/bicycle/drivetrain/shiman...
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        I have a Shimano 8 here, which gears do you notice this with? I'd love to see if I can replicate that.
        hocuspocus 5y ago
        The gear #4 is really bad especially in comparison with the #5 (the 1:1, direct-drive gear).
        jacquesm 5y ago
        Ok, thank you!
    - justinator 5y ago
      I think Sturmey Archer is no more except in name so don’t expect quality from new SA stuff.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        Yes, true. But back in the day they were ultra reliable, I've seen a few fail but that was mostly due to gross abuse, if you were kind to them they'd last forever. Plenty of the oldies still in use today are proof of that.
        justinator 5y ago
        That I certainly agree. About 15 years ago, there was talk of them (re?)releasing a 3 speed fixed gear hub and I couldn't (first) believe it and also couldn't ever find it in stock. They're around now, but I'm not sure I'd risk it.
  - mcntsh 5y ago
    I find the shifting in the IGHs to be super annoying because it destroys your cadence. You have to stop peddling, then shift, then start peddling again. Weight/efficiency are also definitely noticeable. Complexity is a weird thing. For the vast majority of owners the most you'll need to do is change the oil every 10k kilometers, but for the unlucky ones that do need it serviced, that requires shipping your hub across the world. I'm hoping that their growing popularity improves the technology and makes them cheaper. I tour bikes as a hobby and make pretty okay money, but I still can't justify the price point of a Rohloff system.
hocuspocus 5y ago
It's not a particularly recent idea, I believe Brompton has been doing that for decades. And it fills a very specific niche. On most bikes I don't really see the point. Either you want the convenience of an internal gear hub and you have plenty of options that offer a pretty wide range. For instance the Nexus/Alfine 8 feels plenty enough for a commuter bike even if you live in a hilly place. If you're rich you can go with an Alfine 11, Rohloff, or Pinion. Or you don't want the weight/cost/inefficiency, nowadays you can get affordable and reliable 1x10 or 1x11 groupsets. And of course on a proper road bike you'll still want a double chainring.
- stefs 5y ago
  that combination system i've been talking about is for proper road bikes. > And of course on a proper road bike you'll still want a double chainring. why? the IGH replaces the front double chainring. weight and price might be a bit higher but it's probably more robust, less maintenance and you can shift under full load. https://cyclingtips.com/2020/07/this-rear-hub-has-2x-wireless-shifting-inside-and-11-gears-on-the-outside/ https://cyclingtips.com/2020/07/this-rear-hub-has-2x-wireles...
  - hocuspocus 5y ago
    I wasn't aware! Still, I'll believe it when I see it at amateur cycling clubs. At pro-level I don't think anyone would take the performance hit (even though they claim it's compensated) just to avoid having a front derailleur. For gravel, cyclocross or even casual road biking, if a double chainring really bothers you, then 1x12 groupsets exist. Edit: https://www.rosebikes.com/rose-backroad-classified-2x11-2696931 https://www.rosebikes.com/rose-backroad-classified-2x11-2696... Nice bike but the price bump compared to the other electric-shifting models is pretty steep!
- mauvehaus 5y ago
  The Brompton system is ... weird. Owing to the fact that the bike folds and the length of the chain line changes dramatically when you fold it, a traditional parallelogram linkage derailleur wouldn't work. Instead, they have a crazy custom thing that runs the chain through a little pivoting fork that shifts the chain left and right on the two speed freewhatever[0]. The six speed adds the three speed internally geared hub. You can also get one or the other alone. I believe they developed that combination when the supply of 5 speed hubs that fit their highly non-standard read hub spacing dried up. I have a two speed Brompton and love it, but their engineers are next-level crazy in the best possible way. [0] I wouldn't even care to guess. Everything they do is insane.

by stefs 5y ago

mcntsh 5y ago

Actually, internal gear hubs predate the derailer system, but in the past 20 years IGHs have gotten much better and are making a come back.

stefs 5y ago
yes, i meant combining an IGH with a rear derailer (instead of a front derailer). afaik there's only one supplier of those currently (and the system is a bit half-baked, i.e. no DI2 compatibility for reusing the existing shifters).
hocuspocus 5y ago
The biggest issue is the complexity, weight and poor efficiency compared to a derailleur. And also fewer and unevenly graded gears, though that's probably less true with Pinion hubs. It's not that hard to avoid shifting under heavy load (higher-end IGHs shift fine under some load). And on a commuter bike, being able to shift gears at a standstill is great. Edit: you completely changed the content of your message and my reply doesn't make a lot of sense now.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Both Rohloff and Shimano have been making pretty sturdy internal gear hubs for a long time, efficiency is fantastic. Ditto for the venerable Sturmey Archer internal gear hub, which goes back to the dark ages. Efficiency sucks for the continuous variable kind, like the Enviolo and other variations on that theme.
  - hocuspocus 5y ago
    With the Shimano 8 and 11 speed hubs you can tell that some gears have a poor efficiency, it's really noticeable! Apparently the Pinion and Rohloff fare better: https://bikeshed.johnhoogstrate.nl/bicycle/drivetrain/shimano_alfine_inter_11/#efficiency https://bikeshed.johnhoogstrate.nl/bicycle/drivetrain/shiman...
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      I have a Shimano 8 here, which gears do you notice this with? I'd love to see if I can replicate that.
      - hocuspocus 5y ago
        The gear #4 is really bad especially in comparison with the #5 (the 1:1, direct-drive gear).
        jacquesm 5y ago
        Ok, thank you!
  - justinator 5y ago
    I think Sturmey Archer is no more except in name so don’t expect quality from new SA stuff.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Yes, true. But back in the day they were ultra reliable, I've seen a few fail but that was mostly due to gross abuse, if you were kind to them they'd last forever. Plenty of the oldies still in use today are proof of that.
      - justinator 5y ago
        That I certainly agree. About 15 years ago, there was talk of them (re?)releasing a 3 speed fixed gear hub and I couldn't (first) believe it and also couldn't ever find it in stock. They're around now, but I'm not sure I'd risk it.
- mcntsh 5y ago
  I find the shifting in the IGHs to be super annoying because it destroys your cadence. You have to stop peddling, then shift, then start peddling again. Weight/efficiency are also definitely noticeable. Complexity is a weird thing. For the vast majority of owners the most you'll need to do is change the oil every 10k kilometers, but for the unlucky ones that do need it serviced, that requires shipping your hub across the world. I'm hoping that their growing popularity improves the technology and makes them cheaper. I tour bikes as a hobby and make pretty okay money, but I still can't justify the price point of a Rohloff system.

hocuspocus 5y ago

It's not a particularly recent idea, I believe Brompton has been doing that for decades. And it fills a very specific niche. On most bikes I don't really see the point. Either you want the convenience of an internal gear hub and you have plenty of options that offer a pretty wide range. For instance the Nexus/Alfine 8 feels plenty enough for a commuter bike even if you live in a hilly place. If you're rich you can go with an Alfine 11, Rohloff, or Pinion. Or you don't want the weight/cost/inefficiency, nowadays you can get affordable and reliable 1x10 or 1x11 groupsets. And of course on a proper road bike you'll still want a double chainring.

stefs 5y ago
that combination system i've been talking about is for proper road bikes. > And of course on a proper road bike you'll still want a double chainring. why? the IGH replaces the front double chainring. weight and price might be a bit higher but it's probably more robust, less maintenance and you can shift under full load. https://cyclingtips.com/2020/07/this-rear-hub-has-2x-wireless-shifting-inside-and-11-gears-on-the-outside/ https://cyclingtips.com/2020/07/this-rear-hub-has-2x-wireles...
- hocuspocus 5y ago
  I wasn't aware! Still, I'll believe it when I see it at amateur cycling clubs. At pro-level I don't think anyone would take the performance hit (even though they claim it's compensated) just to avoid having a front derailleur. For gravel, cyclocross or even casual road biking, if a double chainring really bothers you, then 1x12 groupsets exist. Edit: https://www.rosebikes.com/rose-backroad-classified-2x11-2696931 https://www.rosebikes.com/rose-backroad-classified-2x11-2696... Nice bike but the price bump compared to the other electric-shifting models is pretty steep!
mauvehaus 5y ago
The Brompton system is ... weird. Owing to the fact that the bike folds and the length of the chain line changes dramatically when you fold it, a traditional parallelogram linkage derailleur wouldn't work. Instead, they have a crazy custom thing that runs the chain through a little pivoting fork that shifts the chain left and right on the two speed freewhatever[0]. The six speed adds the three speed internally geared hub. You can also get one or the other alone. I believe they developed that combination when the supply of 5 speed hubs that fit their highly non-standard read hub spacing dried up. I have a two speed Brompton and love it, but their engineers are next-level crazy in the best possible way. [0] I wouldn't even care to guess. Everything they do is insane.