5 ms·

The article is behind a paywall so I didn't get to read the whole thing, but the little I did read suggests that Godel's accomplishment is intertwined with his

by Kranar 5y ago

The article is behind a paywall so I didn't get to read the whole thing, but the little I did read suggests that Godel's accomplishment is intertwined with his mental illness. It is tempting to romanticize people's mental illness and make it out as a strength that allowed to them to accomplish great intellectual feats, but as far as all evidence goes, mental illness absolutely hinders one's mental capacity and works against it, rather than something that assists it. Suffering from a mental illness doesn't open up a gateway that lets you see into a mysterious universe of abstract concepts and explore things that others can't... to the extent that mental illness correlates highly with certain fields like math, computer science, it's likely due to the fact that people with good social skills were historically persuaded to enter social fields where they are more likely to deal with people on a day to day basis, such as sales, law, medicine, sports, etc... so that the bulk of people remaining who do not have great social skills are left studying subjects that historically could be studied in solitude. Things are a lot different today than they were 100 years ago. Much of physics, math, computer science is now done in large teams and is a lot more social than it used to be. The people that will be looked up to in the 22nd century will almost certainly not have suffered from a mental illness or have their accomplishment in some sense be related to their illness. They will likely be much more extroverted, social and be recognized relative to a larger team/group of people as opposed to today where we often mythologize the mathematicians who were reclusive and had "mysterious" personalities. I imagine the next generation of great thinkers will be more along the lines of a Feynman.

denton-scratch 5y ago
Having poor social skills != mental illness. Some people with poor social skills have no mental illness, and some mentally-ill people have excellent social skills.
skissane 5y ago
I think it is more complex than that. There are certain traits – for example, obsessiveness – which can manifest in different ways. If one can point one's obsessiveness in a socially useful direction, sometimes one can achieve great things with it. If instead it points in a deleterious direction, it can become rather disabling, and one may even end up with some sort of diagnosis as a result. Some people find it easier to control the direction their obsessiveness points in than others; to some extent, differences in that ability may be innate (genetic/etc); to some extent, it may be influenced by environment, upbringing, culture, social situation, opportunities, etc; to some extent, it is probably just good or bad luck, random chance. The difference between the person who achieves a lot and the person who is disabled by mental illness may be smaller than you think–they may both be people with unusually high obsessiveness (and various other traits besides), just representing two different outcomes that extreme can lead to. And of course, sometimes the same outcomes occur in the same person – at some times, a person may be able to direct their obsessiveness in the direction that enables them to achieve things; at other times in their life, they may lack that ability and be quite disabled by it.
robbedpeter 5y ago
Nash is a counter to your assertion. Tesla as well. Einstein, too - he exhibited compulsive behaviors and may have had ocd. High levels of intelligence often accompany greater susceptibility to mental illnesses, resulting in lower quality of life and ability to care for themselves. It's not a matter of romanticizing the crazy genius trope, but likely a consequence of genetics. Hundreds of genes are known to accompany higher intelligence, and many of them are correlated with mental illnesses as well. It could very well be that mental illnesses can be the cause of varied changes in perspective and neural operation in ways that we view as increased intelligence. Absent a rigorous theory of intelligence, it's like we're speculating about microbes when the best tools we have are magnifying glasses. I think within the next couple decades, we'll have the equivalent of SEM and germ theory of disease. We may be able to augment adult brains to operate at the levels of Einstein or Feynman without the accompanying neuroticism or illnesses.
- spurgu 5y ago
  Yeah I'm reminded of Jason Padgett, who turned into a "math genius" after an accident involving head trauma[0]. Judging from that I rather think that us "normal" people have abilities that are hidden from us, filtered out by our normalcy. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H6doOmS-eM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H6doOmS-eM
  - amagumori 5y ago
    i think there's some way in which the brain "crystallizes" as one grows up, and the modes of cognition which are the most used in daily life are deepened at the expense of others. i'd compare it to trails being worn into the dirt by foot traffic; the most trafficked paths will remain for years and years, while the unused paths slowly disappear, until eventually they show no sign of their existence at all. the example i'd give is to think of a kid playing with hot wheels. the kid is not playing with the physical toy; the toy is an avatar from which the kid is building a vivid imaginative playground. the kid is playing within the world of their mind's eye. adults, for the most part, can't play with hot wheels and dive into that same mental landscape of imagination and association. an adult just sees a small die-cast car. rather than being an inherent part of growing up, i think this power of the "mind's eye" is simply a mode of cognition our society doesn't reinforce and select for; so, for most, it's lost as they grow. however, there's really a lot of utility in the power of imagination, and so we also see people who either never lost the ability through repeated reinforcement, or went to great lengths to re-activate it - artists like Katsuya Terada or Kim Jung Gi. notable with these artists is the way they're able to draw photorealistic pieces of eye-watering detail, without construction or perspective layout; they simply start from any point and draw, somehow putting every line in its exact place. when asked about how they possess what is essentially an artistic superpower, they've both related that they are able to visualize the scene in a vivid, consistent, and complete way in their mind's eye, and they simply draw from the mental image. both have said that they drew for hours a day in this "rakugaki" (doodle) style as kids, and never stopped the habit. in doing so they were able to retain and reinforce the power of visualization, a mode of cognition that emerges naturally, but is not retained if not practiced.
Fellshard 5y ago
Maybe less useful, but in fiction, Ted Chiang's 'Division by Zero'[1] is a fascinating window into a human response to such a discovery as Gödel's, because it's not /just/ about math. Major breakthroughs in theory often have deep philosophical consequences as well, and the ramifications can readily break whole worldviews for those who actually and acutely understand what they've found. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_by_Zero_(story) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_by_Zero_(story)
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  I don't know whether Georg Cantor's investigations into higher infinities were related to his psychiatric difficulties, but I would surely have struggled with my sanity if I had been doing that work.
btilly 5y ago
The article is behind a paywall so I didn't get to read the whole thing, but the little I did read suggests that Godel's accomplishment is intertwined with his mental illness. It is tempting to romanticize people's mental illness and make it out as a strength that allowed to them to accomplish great intellectual feats, but as far as all evidence goes, mental illness absolutely hinders one's mental capacity and works against it, rather than something that assists it. Please show me this evidence. What I know is that great things often require someone working obsessively hard. Which mental illness can lead to. For example people with Asperger's can often work much harder, and have successfully lead teams. Examples include Alan Turing during the Enigma Project, and Elon Musk today. Bipolar is often nicknamed "the CEO disease" because so many leaders have it. Ted Turner and Winston Churchill are examples. In a UK survey, fully 40% of entrepreneurs suffered from dyslexia, with Richard Branson being the best known example. No, mental illness does not make you magically smart. Yes, it is a disadvantage. But there is no reason to believe that having to work with a team will stop people with mental illness from rising to the pinnacle of intellectual performance.
guerrilla 5y ago
> mental illness absolutely hinders one's mental capacity and works against it, rather than something that assists it. This is too much of a generalization. I think that is mostly the case but there are obvious benefits to obsession and hypomania if that can be channeled, and sometimes it can.

by Kranar 5y ago

denton-scratch 5y ago

Having poor social skills != mental illness. Some people with poor social skills have no mental illness, and some mentally-ill people have excellent social skills.

skissane 5y ago

I think it is more complex than that. There are certain traits – for example, obsessiveness – which can manifest in different ways. If one can point one's obsessiveness in a socially useful direction, sometimes one can achieve great things with it. If instead it points in a deleterious direction, it can become rather disabling, and one may even end up with some sort of diagnosis as a result. Some people find it easier to control the direction their obsessiveness points in than others; to some extent, differences in that ability may be innate (genetic/etc); to some extent, it may be influenced by environment, upbringing, culture, social situation, opportunities, etc; to some extent, it is probably just good or bad luck, random chance. The difference between the person who achieves a lot and the person who is disabled by mental illness may be smaller than you think–they may both be people with unusually high obsessiveness (and various other traits besides), just representing two different outcomes that extreme can lead to. And of course, sometimes the same outcomes occur in the same person – at some times, a person may be able to direct their obsessiveness in the direction that enables them to achieve things; at other times in their life, they may lack that ability and be quite disabled by it.

robbedpeter 5y ago

Nash is a counter to your assertion. Tesla as well. Einstein, too - he exhibited compulsive behaviors and may have had ocd. High levels of intelligence often accompany greater susceptibility to mental illnesses, resulting in lower quality of life and ability to care for themselves. It's not a matter of romanticizing the crazy genius trope, but likely a consequence of genetics. Hundreds of genes are known to accompany higher intelligence, and many of them are correlated with mental illnesses as well. It could very well be that mental illnesses can be the cause of varied changes in perspective and neural operation in ways that we view as increased intelligence. Absent a rigorous theory of intelligence, it's like we're speculating about microbes when the best tools we have are magnifying glasses. I think within the next couple decades, we'll have the equivalent of SEM and germ theory of disease. We may be able to augment adult brains to operate at the levels of Einstein or Feynman without the accompanying neuroticism or illnesses.

spurgu 5y ago
Yeah I'm reminded of Jason Padgett, who turned into a "math genius" after an accident involving head trauma[0]. Judging from that I rather think that us "normal" people have abilities that are hidden from us, filtered out by our normalcy. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H6doOmS-eM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H6doOmS-eM
- amagumori 5y ago
  i think there's some way in which the brain "crystallizes" as one grows up, and the modes of cognition which are the most used in daily life are deepened at the expense of others. i'd compare it to trails being worn into the dirt by foot traffic; the most trafficked paths will remain for years and years, while the unused paths slowly disappear, until eventually they show no sign of their existence at all. the example i'd give is to think of a kid playing with hot wheels. the kid is not playing with the physical toy; the toy is an avatar from which the kid is building a vivid imaginative playground. the kid is playing within the world of their mind's eye. adults, for the most part, can't play with hot wheels and dive into that same mental landscape of imagination and association. an adult just sees a small die-cast car. rather than being an inherent part of growing up, i think this power of the "mind's eye" is simply a mode of cognition our society doesn't reinforce and select for; so, for most, it's lost as they grow. however, there's really a lot of utility in the power of imagination, and so we also see people who either never lost the ability through repeated reinforcement, or went to great lengths to re-activate it - artists like Katsuya Terada or Kim Jung Gi. notable with these artists is the way they're able to draw photorealistic pieces of eye-watering detail, without construction or perspective layout; they simply start from any point and draw, somehow putting every line in its exact place. when asked about how they possess what is essentially an artistic superpower, they've both related that they are able to visualize the scene in a vivid, consistent, and complete way in their mind's eye, and they simply draw from the mental image. both have said that they drew for hours a day in this "rakugaki" (doodle) style as kids, and never stopped the habit. in doing so they were able to retain and reinforce the power of visualization, a mode of cognition that emerges naturally, but is not retained if not practiced.

Fellshard 5y ago

Maybe less useful, but in fiction, Ted Chiang's 'Division by Zero'[1] is a fascinating window into a human response to such a discovery as Gödel's, because it's not /just/ about math. Major breakthroughs in theory often have deep philosophical consequences as well, and the ramifications can readily break whole worldviews for those who actually and acutely understand what they've found. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_by_Zero_(story) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_by_Zero_(story)

denton-scratch 5y ago
I don't know whether Georg Cantor's investigations into higher infinities were related to his psychiatric difficulties, but I would surely have struggled with my sanity if I had been doing that work.

btilly 5y ago

The article is behind a paywall so I didn't get to read the whole thing, but the little I did read suggests that Godel's accomplishment is intertwined with his mental illness. It is tempting to romanticize people's mental illness and make it out as a strength that allowed to them to accomplish great intellectual feats, but as far as all evidence goes, mental illness absolutely hinders one's mental capacity and works against it, rather than something that assists it. Please show me this evidence. What I know is that great things often require someone working obsessively hard. Which mental illness can lead to. For example people with Asperger's can often work much harder, and have successfully lead teams. Examples include Alan Turing during the Enigma Project, and Elon Musk today. Bipolar is often nicknamed "the CEO disease" because so many leaders have it. Ted Turner and Winston Churchill are examples. In a UK survey, fully 40% of entrepreneurs suffered from dyslexia, with Richard Branson being the best known example. No, mental illness does not make you magically smart. Yes, it is a disadvantage. But there is no reason to believe that having to work with a team will stop people with mental illness from rising to the pinnacle of intellectual performance.

guerrilla 5y ago

> mental illness absolutely hinders one's mental capacity and works against it, rather than something that assists it. This is too much of a generalization. I think that is mostly the case but there are obvious benefits to obsession and hypomania if that can be channeled, and sometimes it can.