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Yeah. A lot of times I find myself thinking YAML is like a really awful programming language. You can sort of do conditional logic and loops, but usually I fi

Yeah. A lot of times I find myself thinking YAML is like a really awful programming language. You can sort of do conditional logic and loops, but usually I find it hard to follow what's going on. For build systems, I always liked the idea of Gradle where the core functionality was simple and declarative, but with the option to use a real programming language for things that weren't simple. For example, integrating installers or form builders (pre-processing) into a build are things I would consider non-trivial if there aren't official plugins, but it was still relatively easy to do with Gradle. The biggest problem I always had with Gradle was that I didn't like Groovy and I always though there was a missed opportunity to have a statically typed build system with a solid API/contract and all the fancy tooling like auto-complete that you get with statically typed languages. I see JSON5 mentioned a lot in the comments. In terms of CI / build systems, I feel like something built with JSON5/TypeScript could be really good. I'd be really happy using TypeScript for configuring things like build systems where there shouldn't really be an argument for needing it to be usable by non-programmers. Personally I feel like I've spent way to much of my life debugging YAML syntax issues.

TheCycoONE 5y ago
Does the Kotlin support in Gradle solve your problem? https://docs.gradle.org/current/userguide/kotlin_dsl.html https://docs.gradle.org/current/userguide/kotlin_dsl.html
- spuz 5y ago
  My experience with Kotlin gradle scripts is worse than Groovy. For example, given the following valid groovy/kotlin gradle program: dependencies { } What would you expect to see between the curly braces? IntelliJ IDEA which supposedly has full support for the gradle DSL both for Groovy and Kotlin offers only generic suggestions. Common function calls such "implementation()" or "testImplementation()" are not suggested. If you do use those functions, no suggestion is made for their parameters. Because Gradle's DSL is built on top of a general purpose language, it loses the benefits of a DSL (constraining the set of possible configurations and guiding the user towards valid configurations).
  - netvl 5y ago
    The key benefit of the Kotlin DSL is that in this precise example, IDEA does suggest valid stuff: https://imgur.com/a/vFYNIU1 https://imgur.com/a/vFYNIU1 Kotlin DSL is miles ahead of Groovy in terms of discoverability and IDEA integration. With Groovy DSL, most of the build script is highlighted with various degrees of errors and warnings; with Kotlin DSL, if something is highlighted, it is a legitimate error, and vice versa - if no errors are detected by IDEA, then it is almost certain to work. There were rough spots of IDEA integration a couple years ago, but now it is close to perfect, within Gradle's limits of course (due to sheer dynamic nature of it, some things are just not possible to express in a static fashion, unfortunately). The biggest obstacle to Kotlin DSL use might be that some of the plugins use various Groovy-specifc features which are hard to use from Kotlin, but thankfully most of the plugins either fix those, or are rewritten in Java or Kotlin instead.
  - heurisko 5y ago
    This was one thing I found difficult learning Gradle: its seeming complete lack of autodiscoverability. I expected it to catch on, but I think a lot of people are sticking with Maven.
    - spuz 5y ago
      There's a huge gap in Java build tool space for a tool that is simple and easy to learn and can cover 90% of projects' requirements. I have this feeling that we're in the "subversion" days of java build tools and the day someone introduces "git" people will wonder why we suffered with Gradle and Maven for so long. If I had time I would be looking into building this.
      - zmmmmm 5y ago
        predating Gradle was a tool called gant. It was simple, intuitive and did 90% of what every project could want. Ironically it was Groovy based as well. But instead of the Gradle arcane magic based configuration it was literal, direct, a simple extension of Ant that came before it. I liked it much better, but someone decided they could make a business out of Gradle and gant got deprecated and here we are.
kitd 5y ago
If you're happy to go lispy, there's Babashka [1], a Clojure without the JVM. It has built-in support for 'tasks' designed to make writing build scripts easy. [1] https://babashka.org/ https://babashka.org/
ljm 5y ago
I found it fairly simple to build Gradle plugins with Kotlin. If anything, the problem was just having the patience to actually find the right documentation in the first place, and understand what was being described. The main problem I faced there was that I wanted a plugin to configure dependencies for the project it would run against and the docs around dealing with dependencies and detached configurations were a bit confusing. I do find it curious that a lot of these tools get seen as basic task runners despite offering much more potential.

TheCycoONE 5y ago

Does the Kotlin support in Gradle solve your problem? https://docs.gradle.org/current/userguide/kotlin_dsl.html https://docs.gradle.org/current/userguide/kotlin_dsl.html

spuz 5y ago
My experience with Kotlin gradle scripts is worse than Groovy. For example, given the following valid groovy/kotlin gradle program: dependencies { } What would you expect to see between the curly braces? IntelliJ IDEA which supposedly has full support for the gradle DSL both for Groovy and Kotlin offers only generic suggestions. Common function calls such "implementation()" or "testImplementation()" are not suggested. If you do use those functions, no suggestion is made for their parameters. Because Gradle's DSL is built on top of a general purpose language, it loses the benefits of a DSL (constraining the set of possible configurations and guiding the user towards valid configurations).
- netvl 5y ago
  The key benefit of the Kotlin DSL is that in this precise example, IDEA does suggest valid stuff: https://imgur.com/a/vFYNIU1 https://imgur.com/a/vFYNIU1 Kotlin DSL is miles ahead of Groovy in terms of discoverability and IDEA integration. With Groovy DSL, most of the build script is highlighted with various degrees of errors and warnings; with Kotlin DSL, if something is highlighted, it is a legitimate error, and vice versa - if no errors are detected by IDEA, then it is almost certain to work. There were rough spots of IDEA integration a couple years ago, but now it is close to perfect, within Gradle's limits of course (due to sheer dynamic nature of it, some things are just not possible to express in a static fashion, unfortunately). The biggest obstacle to Kotlin DSL use might be that some of the plugins use various Groovy-specifc features which are hard to use from Kotlin, but thankfully most of the plugins either fix those, or are rewritten in Java or Kotlin instead.
- heurisko 5y ago
  This was one thing I found difficult learning Gradle: its seeming complete lack of autodiscoverability. I expected it to catch on, but I think a lot of people are sticking with Maven.
  - spuz 5y ago
    There's a huge gap in Java build tool space for a tool that is simple and easy to learn and can cover 90% of projects' requirements. I have this feeling that we're in the "subversion" days of java build tools and the day someone introduces "git" people will wonder why we suffered with Gradle and Maven for so long. If I had time I would be looking into building this.
    - zmmmmm 5y ago
      predating Gradle was a tool called gant. It was simple, intuitive and did 90% of what every project could want. Ironically it was Groovy based as well. But instead of the Gradle arcane magic based configuration it was literal, direct, a simple extension of Ant that came before it. I liked it much better, but someone decided they could make a business out of Gradle and gant got deprecated and here we are.

kitd 5y ago

If you're happy to go lispy, there's Babashka [1], a Clojure without the JVM. It has built-in support for 'tasks' designed to make writing build scripts easy. [1] https://babashka.org/ https://babashka.org/

ljm 5y ago

I found it fairly simple to build Gradle plugins with Kotlin. If anything, the problem was just having the patience to actually find the right documentation in the first place, and understand what was being described. The main problem I faced there was that I wanted a plugin to configure dependencies for the project it would run against and the docs around dealing with dependencies and detached configurations were a bit confusing. I do find it curious that a lot of these tools get seen as basic task runners despite offering much more potential.