6 ms·

Good for them. I wish other governments did the same. We could all work together to get rid of this disease, but this will never happen if we let people that r

by bighi 5y ago

Good for them. I wish other governments did the same. We could all work together to get rid of this disease, but this will never happen if we let people that refuse medicine to walk freely contaminating others.

dempseye 5y ago
This is an endemic disease of humans and will never be eradicated.
bsaul 5y ago
what data makes you think vaccine prevents spreading ? I haven't found any compelling case that would go in that direction. Number of cases seem totally unrelated to vaccination coverage..
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  Vaccines reduce spreading, reduce hospitalizations, and reduce serious illness Saying "the vaccines don't work at all" is IMO equivalent to saying seatbelts don't work at all, they should be abolished, because someone wrecked and died at 200mph while wearing seatbelts.
  - native_samples 5y ago
    Seatbelts do work yet the data on vaccines is - in the very few countries that publish the needed data - by now very clear. Only six months after vaccination the vaccinated are actually much more likely to get COVID than the unvaccinated. Yes this sounds wrong but the data is unambiguous. The UK breaks out cases by age and status. For over 30s case rates are now double or higher. Check my comment history for links.
    - detaro 5y ago
      And according to the same UK data, the unvaccinated are much more likely to end up hospitalized or dead. Seems useful.
      - native_samples 5y ago
        Of COVID, yes. There are potential problems with these stats too, but the problem I'm trying to tackle here is that people are mis-stating what seems to really be happening with actual infection rates and making invalid comparisons to things like seatbelts. For the analogy to hold true seatbelts would have to double your chances of actually crashing your car, and also sometimes randomly kill people who hadn't crashed at all (vaccine injuries are a real thing and excess death is now elevated for non-COVID reasons). Clearly the tradeoffs involved here are quite different and statistics need to be used very carefully to assess them.
        bsaul 5y ago
        i've been trying to find precise good data about excessive deaths ( or abnormal increase of peculiar diseases) due to vaccination but so far i haven't. Either the source isn't reliable or the graphs don't really show anything if you're in good faith. And yet there are a large number of people giving personnal testimonies of very bad side effects with relatives (although it could be just people paying more attention) Do you have any good source ?
        native_samples 5y ago
        Well, what exactly are you looking for? There are no sources showing an increase in excess death due to vaccination because the medical and media establishment categorically deny that this could possibly be happening. As far as they're concerned more or less nobody ever dies of the COVID vaccine, period, end of story and any claim to the contrary is misinformation. This attitude is sometimes summed up as "Vaccines are amongst the leading causes of coincidences". The US VAERS database of course tracks peculiar diseases/symptoms/deaths that follow vaccination. At this point it has more records of adverse events for COVID vaccines than all other vaccines combined since the tracking programme began, but the vast majority of problems never make it to VAERS or similar databases, so the absolute numbers aren't that useful. So the best people can do is inference. There appears to be a sharp increase in deaths due to heart attacks and strokes/other clotting disorders this year. The media are occasionally reporting on this but either claiming it's some inexplicable mystery or coming up with some absurd alternative explanation. Examples: "Health experts have been left baffled by a big rise [25%] in a common and potentially fatal type of heart attack in the west of Scotland": https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mystery-rise-in-heart-attacks-from-blocked-arteries-m253drrnf https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mystery-rise-in-heart-att... "Why are heart attacks becoming common amongst seemingly fit people?" - their answer is a sudden epidemic of too much exercise: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/health-fitness/health-news/why-are-heart-attacks-becoming-common-among-seemingly-fit-people/articleshow/87515634.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/health-fitnes... The UK has very good public health data compared to most countries. It breaks out heart related deaths for both with and without COVID. There has been a large rise in non-COVID heart deaths in 2021. Some of this may be/must be due to the (not really admitted) collapse of the UK healthcare system due to lockdown triggered overload. However there is also a correlation with the vaccine rollout (it's graphed): https://dailysceptic.org/2021/08/31/why-has-there-been-a-rise-in-non-covid-related-heart-attacks-since-the-vaccine-roll-out/ https://dailysceptic.org/2021/08/31/why-has-there-been-a-ris... It's a 12x increase. That's either lockdowns or vaccines but whichever it is, that's not a natural cause, it's caused by government policy. From a quick bit of Googling there seems to be similar data from Israel but I have not checked this tweet in any depth - the tables seem legit but the summarization of it looks backwards to me: https://twitter.com/RanIsraeli/status/1425002893116166144 https://twitter.com/RanIsraeli/status/1425002893116166144 Anecdotally there seem to be a noticeably larger number of athletes having heart attacks whilst playing. Example montages of these stories are here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l34v01crsc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l34v01crsc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZAPxYouf-c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZAPxYouf-c I have a friend who is investigating this phenomenon in more depth. He found a research paper from the early 2000s that counted news reports about sudden on-field medical emergencies amongst young sports players, then compared that rate to some big lists of news stories in 2021 about it he compiled. He's still working on this project and hasn't written anything up publicly but so far it seems the rate is 6x higher than normal. Obviously this sort of investigation is limited by several factors, but as public health agencies refuse to investigate or report on this stuff, there's a limit to how far random members of the public can go.
    - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
      Ah yeah, links to some random blogs... seems legit. A bit like all the "proof" of Democrats stealing 2020, I just don't have time to debunk them all and I'm just going to assume they're fudging the numbers. But well, I've spotted something: https://eugyppius.substack.com/p/ukhsa-efficacy-stats-death-watch https://eugyppius.substack.com/p/ukhsa-efficacy-stats-death-..., ages 40-49: the vaxxed are getting sick at twice the rate of unvaxxed ones. But this image https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/7A0B/production/_121534213_uk_vax_by_age_11nov-nc.png https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/7A0B/production/... from https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55274833 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55274833 says more than 75% of 40-49 have had 1 dosage. Imagine if 100% of a population has been vaccinated. We know breakthrough cases are possible. Everyone that gets Covid after that will be breakthrough! And this graph would have 0 cases of the unvaxxed, and a non-zero bar for the vaxxed, and you're going to interpret that as "The vaccination gives you Covid!". The quoted emails try to explain why this graph is bad and liable to misinterpration, but the Substack author is misleading you by telling you there's dodgy stuff going on. If the vaccine efficacy drops down after 6 months, then, boosters should be prescribed and even made mandatory. But boohoo, more crying from the other side.
      - native_samples 5y ago
        There are two problems in your understanding. 1. The problem appears when comparing rates. Your counter-argument is assuming we're comparing absolute numbers which is false. 2. The argument about "data fudging" is the other way around. The raw data shows sharply negative effectiveness against symptomatic disease, and the UK HSA then "fudges" the data into showing the opposite using a statistical technique called TNCC - the validity of which is currently under debate, as it relies on an assumption that doesn't seem to be true. But these mis-understandings aren't really surprising given that you admit you haven't actually bothered to read the links, and instead decided that you already know the answers because of some unrelated discussion to do with US politics. None of the people I've cited are Americans or in the USA so whatever you think did or did not happen in the 2020 election is quite irrelevant.
  - bsaul 5y ago
    not sure who you're quoting. I'm only saying empirical data seem to show that high vaccination rates don't seem to reduce spreading at all. eg: netherlands and cayman islands.
- tfehring 5y ago
  https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/10/13/do-coronavirus-vaccines-prevent-transmission-of-the-virus https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/10/13/do-coronavirus... Direct link to cited study: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264260v1.full https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264260v...
- glogla 5y ago
  When comparing data with last year, keep in mind that was different and far less contagious strain of the virus.
- latchkey 5y ago
  > what data makes you think vaccine prevents spreading ? Maybe because the CDC says so? Or have we lost all faith in them? https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythingstoknow.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythings... "COVID-19 vaccines are effective at protecting people from COVID-19 and help keep adults and children from getting seriously sick. COVID-19 vaccines can reduce the risk of people spreading the virus that causes COVID-19."
  - bsaul 5y ago
    Well, but then how do you explain the total non-correlation between number of cases vs vaccination rates in various countries ?
    - latchkey 5y ago
      Variants. Delta changed everything. This isn't just one virus globally so you can't compare across countries like that. Look into what happened with Vietnam. They were able to 'control' the spread multiple times over the first year. They thought they could always control things, so they didn't focus on vaccination. Once delta took hold, it spread more quickly than they could control things and the govt. has gone crazy on getting everyone vaccinated as quickly as possible. At this point though, infections are soaring. The govt. has given up trying to control it. A lot of people are going to die. They are figuring that they will push to get as many people vaccinated, but herd immunity will come faster. The plan now is to get the country open again more quickly.
      - bsaul 5y ago
        and then you have netherlands with 80%+ of the pop vaccinated hitting record number of cases. I'm sorry but the narrative "vaccine prevents spread" has been falling apart for the past 6 months and is now completely disproved by real world data. Not a single country has been successful at preventing the spread with vaccination. And it shows at every level : from cities (singapore) to small islands (cayman islands) to states.
chrismcb 5y ago
You seem to imply it is ok for people who take the medication to walk freely contaminating others.
helloworld11 5y ago
The reasoning inside your comment shows the worst kind of obsessive rationalization of truly abnormal, paranoid efforts to mitigate a number that by itself is steadily becoming practically irrelevant. For one thing, COVID will without a doubt become an endemic disease of the human species and is currently impossible to erradícate no matter the forced vaccination programs we throw at it, and secondly, who cares? So long as the virus either mutates into something no worse than seasonal flu and cold viruses, or we adapt to cause us a comparable level of immune protection, its spread and case numbers should be no more relevant than the annual spread of any normal mild flu strain or cold virus was before the absurd 2021 hysteria over raw COVID numbers (not even fatalities or anything that actually has any serious meaning anymore) took hold over millions of people and the politicians who pander to them. It's sad to see how many otherwise presumably normal people so easily skip away from ideas of basic individual rights for such flimsy reasons now.

by bighi 5y ago

dempseye 5y ago

This is an endemic disease of humans and will never be eradicated.

bsaul 5y ago

what data makes you think vaccine prevents spreading ? I haven't found any compelling case that would go in that direction. Number of cases seem totally unrelated to vaccination coverage..

bellyfullofbac 5y ago
Vaccines reduce spreading, reduce hospitalizations, and reduce serious illness Saying "the vaccines don't work at all" is IMO equivalent to saying seatbelts don't work at all, they should be abolished, because someone wrecked and died at 200mph while wearing seatbelts.
- native_samples 5y ago
  Seatbelts do work yet the data on vaccines is - in the very few countries that publish the needed data - by now very clear. Only six months after vaccination the vaccinated are actually much more likely to get COVID than the unvaccinated. Yes this sounds wrong but the data is unambiguous. The UK breaks out cases by age and status. For over 30s case rates are now double or higher. Check my comment history for links.
  - detaro 5y ago
    And according to the same UK data, the unvaccinated are much more likely to end up hospitalized or dead. Seems useful.
    - native_samples 5y ago
      Of COVID, yes. There are potential problems with these stats too, but the problem I'm trying to tackle here is that people are mis-stating what seems to really be happening with actual infection rates and making invalid comparisons to things like seatbelts. For the analogy to hold true seatbelts would have to double your chances of actually crashing your car, and also sometimes randomly kill people who hadn't crashed at all (vaccine injuries are a real thing and excess death is now elevated for non-COVID reasons). Clearly the tradeoffs involved here are quite different and statistics need to be used very carefully to assess them.
      - bsaul 5y ago
        i've been trying to find precise good data about excessive deaths ( or abnormal increase of peculiar diseases) due to vaccination but so far i haven't. Either the source isn't reliable or the graphs don't really show anything if you're in good faith. And yet there are a large number of people giving personnal testimonies of very bad side effects with relatives (although it could be just people paying more attention) Do you have any good source ?
        native_samples 5y ago
        Well, what exactly are you looking for? There are no sources showing an increase in excess death due to vaccination because the medical and media establishment categorically deny that this could possibly be happening. As far as they're concerned more or less nobody ever dies of the COVID vaccine, period, end of story and any claim to the contrary is misinformation. This attitude is sometimes summed up as "Vaccines are amongst the leading causes of coincidences". The US VAERS database of course tracks peculiar diseases/symptoms/deaths that follow vaccination. At this point it has more records of adverse events for COVID vaccines than all other vaccines combined since the tracking programme began, but the vast majority of problems never make it to VAERS or similar databases, so the absolute numbers aren't that useful. So the best people can do is inference. There appears to be a sharp increase in deaths due to heart attacks and strokes/other clotting disorders this year. The media are occasionally reporting on this but either claiming it's some inexplicable mystery or coming up with some absurd alternative explanation. Examples: "Health experts have been left baffled by a big rise [25%] in a common and potentially fatal type of heart attack in the west of Scotland": https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mystery-rise-in-heart-attacks-from-blocked-arteries-m253drrnf https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mystery-rise-in-heart-att... "Why are heart attacks becoming common amongst seemingly fit people?" - their answer is a sudden epidemic of too much exercise: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/health-fitness/health-news/why-are-heart-attacks-becoming-common-among-seemingly-fit-people/articleshow/87515634.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/health-fitnes... The UK has very good public health data compared to most countries. It breaks out heart related deaths for both with and without COVID. There has been a large rise in non-COVID heart deaths in 2021. Some of this may be/must be due to the (not really admitted) collapse of the UK healthcare system due to lockdown triggered overload. However there is also a correlation with the vaccine rollout (it's graphed): https://dailysceptic.org/2021/08/31/why-has-there-been-a-rise-in-non-covid-related-heart-attacks-since-the-vaccine-roll-out/ https://dailysceptic.org/2021/08/31/why-has-there-been-a-ris... It's a 12x increase. That's either lockdowns or vaccines but whichever it is, that's not a natural cause, it's caused by government policy. From a quick bit of Googling there seems to be similar data from Israel but I have not checked this tweet in any depth - the tables seem legit but the summarization of it looks backwards to me: https://twitter.com/RanIsraeli/status/1425002893116166144 https://twitter.com/RanIsraeli/status/1425002893116166144 Anecdotally there seem to be a noticeably larger number of athletes having heart attacks whilst playing. Example montages of these stories are here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l34v01crsc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l34v01crsc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZAPxYouf-c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZAPxYouf-c I have a friend who is investigating this phenomenon in more depth. He found a research paper from the early 2000s that counted news reports about sudden on-field medical emergencies amongst young sports players, then compared that rate to some big lists of news stories in 2021 about it he compiled. He's still working on this project and hasn't written anything up publicly but so far it seems the rate is 6x higher than normal. Obviously this sort of investigation is limited by several factors, but as public health agencies refuse to investigate or report on this stuff, there's a limit to how far random members of the public can go.
  - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    Ah yeah, links to some random blogs... seems legit. A bit like all the "proof" of Democrats stealing 2020, I just don't have time to debunk them all and I'm just going to assume they're fudging the numbers. But well, I've spotted something: https://eugyppius.substack.com/p/ukhsa-efficacy-stats-death-watch https://eugyppius.substack.com/p/ukhsa-efficacy-stats-death-..., ages 40-49: the vaxxed are getting sick at twice the rate of unvaxxed ones. But this image https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/7A0B/production/_121534213_uk_vax_by_age_11nov-nc.png https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/7A0B/production/... from https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55274833 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55274833 says more than 75% of 40-49 have had 1 dosage. Imagine if 100% of a population has been vaccinated. We know breakthrough cases are possible. Everyone that gets Covid after that will be breakthrough! And this graph would have 0 cases of the unvaxxed, and a non-zero bar for the vaxxed, and you're going to interpret that as "The vaccination gives you Covid!". The quoted emails try to explain why this graph is bad and liable to misinterpration, but the Substack author is misleading you by telling you there's dodgy stuff going on. If the vaccine efficacy drops down after 6 months, then, boosters should be prescribed and even made mandatory. But boohoo, more crying from the other side.
    - native_samples 5y ago
      There are two problems in your understanding. 1. The problem appears when comparing rates. Your counter-argument is assuming we're comparing absolute numbers which is false. 2. The argument about "data fudging" is the other way around. The raw data shows sharply negative effectiveness against symptomatic disease, and the UK HSA then "fudges" the data into showing the opposite using a statistical technique called TNCC - the validity of which is currently under debate, as it relies on an assumption that doesn't seem to be true. But these mis-understandings aren't really surprising given that you admit you haven't actually bothered to read the links, and instead decided that you already know the answers because of some unrelated discussion to do with US politics. None of the people I've cited are Americans or in the USA so whatever you think did or did not happen in the 2020 election is quite irrelevant.
- bsaul 5y ago
  not sure who you're quoting. I'm only saying empirical data seem to show that high vaccination rates don't seem to reduce spreading at all. eg: netherlands and cayman islands.
tfehring 5y ago
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/10/13/do-coronavirus-vaccines-prevent-transmission-of-the-virus https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/10/13/do-coronavirus... Direct link to cited study: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264260v1.full https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264260v...
glogla 5y ago
When comparing data with last year, keep in mind that was different and far less contagious strain of the virus.
latchkey 5y ago
> what data makes you think vaccine prevents spreading ? Maybe because the CDC says so? Or have we lost all faith in them? https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythingstoknow.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythings... "COVID-19 vaccines are effective at protecting people from COVID-19 and help keep adults and children from getting seriously sick. COVID-19 vaccines can reduce the risk of people spreading the virus that causes COVID-19."
- bsaul 5y ago
  Well, but then how do you explain the total non-correlation between number of cases vs vaccination rates in various countries ?
  - latchkey 5y ago
    Variants. Delta changed everything. This isn't just one virus globally so you can't compare across countries like that. Look into what happened with Vietnam. They were able to 'control' the spread multiple times over the first year. They thought they could always control things, so they didn't focus on vaccination. Once delta took hold, it spread more quickly than they could control things and the govt. has gone crazy on getting everyone vaccinated as quickly as possible. At this point though, infections are soaring. The govt. has given up trying to control it. A lot of people are going to die. They are figuring that they will push to get as many people vaccinated, but herd immunity will come faster. The plan now is to get the country open again more quickly.
    - bsaul 5y ago
      and then you have netherlands with 80%+ of the pop vaccinated hitting record number of cases. I'm sorry but the narrative "vaccine prevents spread" has been falling apart for the past 6 months and is now completely disproved by real world data. Not a single country has been successful at preventing the spread with vaccination. And it shows at every level : from cities (singapore) to small islands (cayman islands) to states.

chrismcb 5y ago

You seem to imply it is ok for people who take the medication to walk freely contaminating others.

helloworld11 5y ago

The reasoning inside your comment shows the worst kind of obsessive rationalization of truly abnormal, paranoid efforts to mitigate a number that by itself is steadily becoming practically irrelevant. For one thing, COVID will without a doubt become an endemic disease of the human species and is currently impossible to erradícate no matter the forced vaccination programs we throw at it, and secondly, who cares? So long as the virus either mutates into something no worse than seasonal flu and cold viruses, or we adapt to cause us a comparable level of immune protection, its spread and case numbers should be no more relevant than the annual spread of any normal mild flu strain or cold virus was before the absurd 2021 hysteria over raw COVID numbers (not even fatalities or anything that actually has any serious meaning anymore) took hold over millions of people and the politicians who pander to them. It's sad to see how many otherwise presumably normal people so easily skip away from ideas of basic individual rights for such flimsy reasons now.