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Ask HN: Is it possible to solve Sudoku or Rubik's Cube without training

6 points by gautamsomani 5y ago

I can solve simple sudoku, well everyone can I guess. But when it comes to difficult levels, I fail. And I have never been able to solve a Rubik's cube. My question is - can people solve these without any training or knowlegde of tricks or actual methods to solve them? Am I banging my head at the wrong wall? Should I learn about the methodology or is an average person supposed to solve these without any training?

he11ow 5y ago
The Rubik's cube is even simpler than the sudoku, if you're willing to memorize a bunch of steps. It becomes a matter of looking at the state of the cube, and applying the same set movements.
- cellogenius 5y ago
  Right. The question is whether one can deduce those algorithms themselves without knowing them. How long would it take someone to figure out the patterns on their own?
db48x 5y ago
Yes, these puzzles are entirely self–contained. There are no hidden tricks or rules. In principle you can completely solve them with no reference to outside material, just by studying the problem itself. The math involved in a Rubik’s cube is actually quite interesting too.
- sircastor 5y ago
  I came to say the same thing basically. These are known systems that have a finite set of operations you can perform. I think one of the most interesting things about the Rubik’s cube was how people viewed it as something only a genius could solve
Matthias247 5y ago
There are some good Sudoku apps which at each step offer hints and show to solve it systematically based on the current known information. I e.g. used the "Enjoy Sodoku" app for a while. With increasing difficulty level the steps become more and more less obvious, and I might not have come up with them on my own. I would say both trying to discover those methodologies on your own as well as using tools to learn about them counts as "training". So yes, I think one needs training to solve these puzzles at higher difficulty levels.
Jxl180 5y ago
Can’t you ask the same of chess? Can you win a game of chess, only knowing the rules and nothing else? Absolutely (depending on opponent), but you aren’t doing yourself any favors.
- muzani 5y ago
  Chess is multiplayer, sudoku/Rubik's is single player. With chess, the game is how well you play against others, and how well you can catch up to the present game. With single player games a lot of it is about exploration, instead of winning. You set your own win condition.
redis_mlc 5y ago
For the 3x3x3 Rubik's cube, there were both practical howto guides as well as math group-theory solution books published.
LarryMade2 5y ago
The more you work at it the more you discover strategies for solving different problems, eventually you can perform a total solution. May not be the the most efficient but it will work. Also maybe you may discover unique strategies others have not.
lastofus 5y ago
Unless you are an exceedingly clever person, it's unlikely you will re-discover all of the advanced/extreme techniques needed to solve the hardest Sudoku puzzles that are out there. Here is an example of one of the aforementioned "extreme" techniques: https://www.sudokuwiki.org/Exocet https://www.sudokuwiki.org/Exocet That said, you can probably solve up to and including "difficult" Sudoku puzzles on your own without having to learn advanced techniques. As another poster mentioned, "Enjoy Sudoku" is a great app to try, as each difficulty level is defined by the techniques needed to solve the puzzle. This should help define for you the boundaries of what you are able to discover on your own.

6 points by gautamsomani 5y ago

he11ow 5y ago

The Rubik's cube is even simpler than the sudoku, if you're willing to memorize a bunch of steps. It becomes a matter of looking at the state of the cube, and applying the same set movements.

cellogenius 5y ago
Right. The question is whether one can deduce those algorithms themselves without knowing them. How long would it take someone to figure out the patterns on their own?

db48x 5y ago

Yes, these puzzles are entirely self–contained. There are no hidden tricks or rules. In principle you can completely solve them with no reference to outside material, just by studying the problem itself. The math involved in a Rubik’s cube is actually quite interesting too.

sircastor 5y ago
I came to say the same thing basically. These are known systems that have a finite set of operations you can perform. I think one of the most interesting things about the Rubik’s cube was how people viewed it as something only a genius could solve

Matthias247 5y ago

There are some good Sudoku apps which at each step offer hints and show to solve it systematically based on the current known information. I e.g. used the "Enjoy Sodoku" app for a while. With increasing difficulty level the steps become more and more less obvious, and I might not have come up with them on my own. I would say both trying to discover those methodologies on your own as well as using tools to learn about them counts as "training". So yes, I think one needs training to solve these puzzles at higher difficulty levels.

Jxl180 5y ago

Can’t you ask the same of chess? Can you win a game of chess, only knowing the rules and nothing else? Absolutely (depending on opponent), but you aren’t doing yourself any favors.

muzani 5y ago
Chess is multiplayer, sudoku/Rubik's is single player. With chess, the game is how well you play against others, and how well you can catch up to the present game. With single player games a lot of it is about exploration, instead of winning. You set your own win condition.

redis_mlc 5y ago

For the 3x3x3 Rubik's cube, there were both practical howto guides as well as math group-theory solution books published.

LarryMade2 5y ago

The more you work at it the more you discover strategies for solving different problems, eventually you can perform a total solution. May not be the the most efficient but it will work. Also maybe you may discover unique strategies others have not.

lastofus 5y ago

Unless you are an exceedingly clever person, it's unlikely you will re-discover all of the advanced/extreme techniques needed to solve the hardest Sudoku puzzles that are out there. Here is an example of one of the aforementioned "extreme" techniques: https://www.sudokuwiki.org/Exocet https://www.sudokuwiki.org/Exocet That said, you can probably solve up to and including "difficult" Sudoku puzzles on your own without having to learn advanced techniques. As another poster mentioned, "Enjoy Sudoku" is a great app to try, as each difficulty level is defined by the techniques needed to solve the puzzle. This should help define for you the boundaries of what you are able to discover on your own.