3 ms·

> In decades to come we'll wonder and think and study how this all went so horrifically wrong. lol, it might take decades to massage public consciousness for a

> In decades to come we'll wonder and think and study how this all went so horrifically wrong. lol, it might take decades to massage public consciousness for a desired outcome in the state's interest, but it certainly doesn't take that long to get a handle on the actual issues: institutions used up all their credibility on transparently obvious misinformation. It started with the WHO, an organization already hurting in that regard (Mugabe the goodwill ambassador... hard to top that kind of contempt), misrepresenting their Wuhan fact finding efforts. Then you had US politicians calling early efforts xenophobic and encouraging people to gather in chinatown to stick it to the racists, followed by the CDC saying masks weren't effective, before they were, and then weren't - and then double-masking. All while the stats were clearly going screwy, people suddenly stopped dying of anything but covid - the long running influenza tracking efforts were halted (or announced, but then reversed?)... oh, and obviously George Floyd tested positive. Mentions of "herd immunity" were scrubbed from the CDC's site, and the word "vaccine" redefined. So that is what went wrong: you can't expect appeals to authority to work when the authorities have seemingly gone out of their way to present themselves as liars who are trying to manipulate you by any means available to them.

ajmurmann 5y ago
You call out a lot of unfortunate communication missteps. What are you referring to though with redefining the word vaccine?
- angelzen 5y ago
  Both: "Immunity: Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected." Before: "Vaccine: A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but can also be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose." After: "Vaccine: A preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but some can be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose." http://web.archive.org/web/20210826113846/https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm http://web.archive.org/web/20210826113846/https://www.cdc.go... https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm
  - 8note 5y ago
    > produce immunity But what is immunity, other than an immune response to the disease?
    - angelzen 5y ago
      CDC definition I just quoted: "Immunity: Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected."
- sennight 5y ago
  A FOIA request turned up the email exchange that motivated the redefinition. Clearly motivated by a desire to control outcome, which is odd - given the constant demand for deference over critical thought: https://www.scribd.com/document/536749738/CDC-Emails https://www.scribd.com/document/536749738/CDC-Emails > ...unfortunate communication missteps. That is one hell of a euphemism for being caught out in a lie. Fauci admitted to Congress that he intentionally lied to the public about the effectiveness of masks in order to manage people's behavior. Of course he tried to make his admission as confusing and unquotable as possible, which might be why you aren't aware of it: "...there was a paucity of equipment..." I get the whole excuse about employing deceit in the furtherance of some greater good... but the problem with that kind of policy is that it can only possibly be used once - and after that you are left no other tools, because you can't be trusted. Do I think that was the motivation for most of this? Sure, why not... but I also know that it is a very convenient way to dodge responsibility for expanding federal power beyond what many imagined even possible while also funneling a huge amount of money. There is a reason why the mega-wealthy are coming out of this economic catastrophe with so much more than they had going in.
ajross 5y ago
So... and I mean this genuinely: nothing in that word salad refutes the fact that the vaccinated are 20x less likely to die from covid. There are always things for you to be upset about. But facts are facts. My "side" (led, perhaps, by misinformation pushed to us by various Institutions acting in The States Interest) was right, yours (seeing clearly) was... wrong. So maybe it's time to maybe revisit some of your other priors?
- sennight 5y ago
  So... and I mean this genuinely: that isn't the point I was addressing, but I suppose if you understood it to be "word salad" then reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. Maybe its time for you to reconsider the wisdom of framing this as some kind of game with sides? Or maybe just tone down the mind reading, because you don't do it very well.
  - ajross 5y ago
    I framed it as a game with sides because it clearly is: you jumped into a discussion about a seemingly undeniable truth (vaccines work) with a bunch of evidence about... other stuff that clearly is aimed at the people who believe that truth, designed to (I guess) justify the disbelieve of the obvious truth, or undermine faith in it, or... something. It's clear to me that you're on the "side" of "don't take the vaccine". Are you not? Are you vaccinated? If so, why argue against the data in the linked article?

ajmurmann 5y ago

You call out a lot of unfortunate communication missteps. What are you referring to though with redefining the word vaccine?

angelzen 5y ago
Both: "Immunity: Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected." Before: "Vaccine: A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but can also be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose." After: "Vaccine: A preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but some can be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose." http://web.archive.org/web/20210826113846/https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm http://web.archive.org/web/20210826113846/https://www.cdc.go... https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm
- 8note 5y ago
  > produce immunity But what is immunity, other than an immune response to the disease?
  - angelzen 5y ago
    CDC definition I just quoted: "Immunity: Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected."
sennight 5y ago
A FOIA request turned up the email exchange that motivated the redefinition. Clearly motivated by a desire to control outcome, which is odd - given the constant demand for deference over critical thought: https://www.scribd.com/document/536749738/CDC-Emails https://www.scribd.com/document/536749738/CDC-Emails > ...unfortunate communication missteps. That is one hell of a euphemism for being caught out in a lie. Fauci admitted to Congress that he intentionally lied to the public about the effectiveness of masks in order to manage people's behavior. Of course he tried to make his admission as confusing and unquotable as possible, which might be why you aren't aware of it: "...there was a paucity of equipment..." I get the whole excuse about employing deceit in the furtherance of some greater good... but the problem with that kind of policy is that it can only possibly be used once - and after that you are left no other tools, because you can't be trusted. Do I think that was the motivation for most of this? Sure, why not... but I also know that it is a very convenient way to dodge responsibility for expanding federal power beyond what many imagined even possible while also funneling a huge amount of money. There is a reason why the mega-wealthy are coming out of this economic catastrophe with so much more than they had going in.

ajross 5y ago

So... and I mean this genuinely: nothing in that word salad refutes the fact that the vaccinated are 20x less likely to die from covid. There are always things for you to be upset about. But facts are facts. My "side" (led, perhaps, by misinformation pushed to us by various Institutions acting in The States Interest) was right, yours (seeing clearly) was... wrong. So maybe it's time to maybe revisit some of your other priors?

sennight 5y ago
So... and I mean this genuinely: that isn't the point I was addressing, but I suppose if you understood it to be "word salad" then reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. Maybe its time for you to reconsider the wisdom of framing this as some kind of game with sides? Or maybe just tone down the mind reading, because you don't do it very well.
- ajross 5y ago
  I framed it as a game with sides because it clearly is: you jumped into a discussion about a seemingly undeniable truth (vaccines work) with a bunch of evidence about... other stuff that clearly is aimed at the people who believe that truth, designed to (I guess) justify the disbelieve of the obvious truth, or undermine faith in it, or... something. It's clear to me that you're on the "side" of "don't take the vaccine". Are you not? Are you vaccinated? If so, why argue against the data in the linked article?