5 ms·

A redditor gets caught up in a triangulation scam and investigates

110 points by starwind 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
lmilcin 5y ago
Reads well but scarry how seemingly intelligent people can be so stupid to risk everything for couple hundred dollars.
silisili 5y ago
Damn interesting read, but it just doesn't pass the smell test. A seasoned security professional and an antifraud higher up(at AMEX, no less) selling 5 gallon buckets on ebay? Perhaps more likely they are victims as well, if of nothing else identify theft. If not pure larping, it may just be a case of scammers getting ever more creative. I sold a device on Swappa once, got payment, everything seemed fine. Before I shipped it, luckily (or not), I received personal emails threatening me and telling me I was going to jail and such. I still don't understand the scam completely, but someone apparently used a person's name, email, and finances to pay for something, and that person was able to get my info from Swappa so assumed I was playing a part. If true, will be interesting to see how this shakes out. Side note: My brother works fraud for a huge national bank. The stuff he tells me both amazes and horrifies me. I swear, if some of these scammers used their ingenuity for legitimate business, they could go far.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  You say that like "Legitimate Business" and "scam" are really all that different in our society. For some reason we tolerate a significant amount of bullshit designed to sneakily or forcefully separate us from our money when it's some corporation doing it instead of some Nigerian or whatever.
  - toolz 5y ago
    I don't know your situation, but every single dollar I give to corporations is voluntary and without deceit. I suspect this is blind rage out of jealousy for the rich, but if you do truly live somewhere where it's common for businesses to deceive you and steal your money I'd want to hear more about it.
    - YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo 5y ago
      That's a funny comment not everyone is entitled to living a life like you. There are a lot of places in africa, eastern europe and asia where you can't decide on what you spend your money because there isn't any choice. The same goes for lower income families in the US. In rural and even suburban communities there is only one choice of ISP. In a lot of communites there is only one energy provider and it goes on and on. You are insanely tone deaf. Here is a nice sociology paper that goes into the depth of it: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233466460_Freedom_of_Choice_and_Poverty_Alleviation https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233466460_Freedom_o... Flagging comments because you don't like them is also really mature way to handle criticism.
      - dang 5y ago
        > You are insanely tone deaf. You can't post swipes like that to HN and we ban accounts that do. Would you mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules, regardless of how tone deaf someone else is or you feel they are? > Flagging comments because you don't like them is also really mature way to handle criticism The commenter you replied to is not one of the users who flagged your comment, and posting like this is also a kind of attack which is against HN's rules. Please omit such stuff from your comments in the future, even when downvoted or flagged.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
      The US. Even our healthcare system largely exists just to squeeze us. I think you have a rather naive view of how corporations and business actually work. Sure, you technically "voluntarily" use their services, but this is often because you're not given a choice either by the reality of economics, monopolistic practices, or even the law. My internet company oversells and underdelivers and doesn't really give two shits that they have terrible quality because they know our only other choices are even worse and they've lobbied themselves into a position to keep real competition out. Go to buy a car and the salesmen will absolutely push you to get your financing through them even if you don't actually need any financing. My sister has been threatened 5 times now by a collection agency for a loan she already paid off years ago. Funeral homes try to guilt you into buying caskets and flowers and shit through them rather than through third parties who are an order of magnitude less expensive, oh, and they have financing too! Cereal and toy companies advertise to children and coach them on effective ways to annoy their parents into buying their product for them. Pharmaceutical companies advertise directly to consumers to pressure their doctors into prescribing them stuff. I can hear your response now, something along the lines of "It's their fault for falling for it". Capitalism as it exists today optimizes for sociopathy and people like you are so entrenched in that culture that you can't even see it anymore.
- malshe 5y ago
  I'm with you. The story progressed way too smoothly. He called the two eBay buyers and both actually talked to him!
  - op00to 5y ago
    I’m more amazed the local police even talked to him.
  - zenexer 5y ago
    I’ve done stuff like this. It doesn’t always work, but people are often happy to help, especially if they already believe something is amiss.
  - mindslight 5y ago
    I imagine that "open source intelligence" means pay-to-play surveillance databases that are generally out of the public's eye. If you call someone directly and sound like a reasonable person, most people will talk to you. To give you an anecdote about how comprehensive these databases are - I signed up for Oracle's free VPS, just to see how it was. I gave one of my vanity VOIP numbers rather than my direct number (it looks like a made up number, think 222-333-4444). Since they have such a high touch sales process, this apparently got personally reviewed and flagged as fraud. Rather than getting an email or call from my card company, an Oracle rep ended up calling the landline of one of my past residences to try and get in touch with me. The number had never been given out as a contact for myself, but seemingly came up on the list all the phone numbers associated with me.
wjamesg 5y ago
DEFCON speaker on this type of attack: https://youtu.be/2IT2oAzTcvU https://youtu.be/2IT2oAzTcvU
authed 5y ago
This post must have been demoted by Dang.
- dang 5y ago
  Not sure why you thought that, but mods didn't do anything to that post.
  - authed 5y ago
    Because of the public stats available at the time... must have been hidden mod rules that must have caused it
    - dang 5y ago
      Sorry, but I'm not understanding what you're alluding to.
      - authed 5y ago
        Look at the existing auto-mod rules that are invisible to users.
ryanlol 5y ago
Where is the triangulation happening? This is really confusing.

110 points by starwind 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

lmilcin 5y ago

Reads well but scarry how seemingly intelligent people can be so stupid to risk everything for couple hundred dollars.

silisili 5y ago

Damn interesting read, but it just doesn't pass the smell test. A seasoned security professional and an antifraud higher up(at AMEX, no less) selling 5 gallon buckets on ebay? Perhaps more likely they are victims as well, if of nothing else identify theft. If not pure larping, it may just be a case of scammers getting ever more creative. I sold a device on Swappa once, got payment, everything seemed fine. Before I shipped it, luckily (or not), I received personal emails threatening me and telling me I was going to jail and such. I still don't understand the scam completely, but someone apparently used a person's name, email, and finances to pay for something, and that person was able to get my info from Swappa so assumed I was playing a part. If true, will be interesting to see how this shakes out. Side note: My brother works fraud for a huge national bank. The stuff he tells me both amazes and horrifies me. I swear, if some of these scammers used their ingenuity for legitimate business, they could go far.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
You say that like "Legitimate Business" and "scam" are really all that different in our society. For some reason we tolerate a significant amount of bullshit designed to sneakily or forcefully separate us from our money when it's some corporation doing it instead of some Nigerian or whatever.
- toolz 5y ago
  I don't know your situation, but every single dollar I give to corporations is voluntary and without deceit. I suspect this is blind rage out of jealousy for the rich, but if you do truly live somewhere where it's common for businesses to deceive you and steal your money I'd want to hear more about it.
  - YXNjaGVyZWdlbgo 5y ago
    That's a funny comment not everyone is entitled to living a life like you. There are a lot of places in africa, eastern europe and asia where you can't decide on what you spend your money because there isn't any choice. The same goes for lower income families in the US. In rural and even suburban communities there is only one choice of ISP. In a lot of communites there is only one energy provider and it goes on and on. You are insanely tone deaf. Here is a nice sociology paper that goes into the depth of it: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233466460_Freedom_of_Choice_and_Poverty_Alleviation https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233466460_Freedom_o... Flagging comments because you don't like them is also really mature way to handle criticism.
    - dang 5y ago
      > You are insanely tone deaf. You can't post swipes like that to HN and we ban accounts that do. Would you mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules, regardless of how tone deaf someone else is or you feel they are? > Flagging comments because you don't like them is also really mature way to handle criticism The commenter you replied to is not one of the users who flagged your comment, and posting like this is also a kind of attack which is against HN's rules. Please omit such stuff from your comments in the future, even when downvoted or flagged.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    The US. Even our healthcare system largely exists just to squeeze us. I think you have a rather naive view of how corporations and business actually work. Sure, you technically "voluntarily" use their services, but this is often because you're not given a choice either by the reality of economics, monopolistic practices, or even the law. My internet company oversells and underdelivers and doesn't really give two shits that they have terrible quality because they know our only other choices are even worse and they've lobbied themselves into a position to keep real competition out. Go to buy a car and the salesmen will absolutely push you to get your financing through them even if you don't actually need any financing. My sister has been threatened 5 times now by a collection agency for a loan she already paid off years ago. Funeral homes try to guilt you into buying caskets and flowers and shit through them rather than through third parties who are an order of magnitude less expensive, oh, and they have financing too! Cereal and toy companies advertise to children and coach them on effective ways to annoy their parents into buying their product for them. Pharmaceutical companies advertise directly to consumers to pressure their doctors into prescribing them stuff. I can hear your response now, something along the lines of "It's their fault for falling for it". Capitalism as it exists today optimizes for sociopathy and people like you are so entrenched in that culture that you can't even see it anymore.
malshe 5y ago
I'm with you. The story progressed way too smoothly. He called the two eBay buyers and both actually talked to him!
- op00to 5y ago
  I’m more amazed the local police even talked to him.
- zenexer 5y ago
  I’ve done stuff like this. It doesn’t always work, but people are often happy to help, especially if they already believe something is amiss.
- mindslight 5y ago
  I imagine that "open source intelligence" means pay-to-play surveillance databases that are generally out of the public's eye. If you call someone directly and sound like a reasonable person, most people will talk to you. To give you an anecdote about how comprehensive these databases are - I signed up for Oracle's free VPS, just to see how it was. I gave one of my vanity VOIP numbers rather than my direct number (it looks like a made up number, think 222-333-4444). Since they have such a high touch sales process, this apparently got personally reviewed and flagged as fraud. Rather than getting an email or call from my card company, an Oracle rep ended up calling the landline of one of my past residences to try and get in touch with me. The number had never been given out as a contact for myself, but seemingly came up on the list all the phone numbers associated with me.

wjamesg 5y ago

DEFCON speaker on this type of attack: https://youtu.be/2IT2oAzTcvU https://youtu.be/2IT2oAzTcvU

authed 5y ago

This post must have been demoted by Dang.

dang 5y ago
Not sure why you thought that, but mods didn't do anything to that post.
- authed 5y ago
  Because of the public stats available at the time... must have been hidden mod rules that must have caused it
  - dang 5y ago
    Sorry, but I'm not understanding what you're alluding to.
    - authed 5y ago
      Look at the existing auto-mod rules that are invisible to users.

ryanlol 5y ago

Where is the triangulation happening? This is really confusing.