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I still see GNOME as the most practical DE to run - but it's telling that absolutely nobody uses it as shipped: at minimum they install dash to dock or dash to

I still see GNOME as the most practical DE to run - but it's telling that absolutely nobody uses it as shipped: at minimum they install dash to dock or dash to panel, re-enable minimise buttons, and install a system tray extension. The project seems to usually come around in the end, and it reminds me of some quote critical of the US's foreign policy I think, that "You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing - after they have tried everything else". Perfectly practical solutions to problems are proposed on bug trackers, and dismissed with the demand of impossibly strict requirements of well-justified use cases, when the current behaviour was never subject to such a high bar. Then years later the obvious fix is quietly implemented after the sheen has worn off whatever sacred cow was considered "the right way to do it" that was blocking the obvious, impure, against-the-vision fix from being considered. Of course nobody can rightfully expect work to be done on a FOSS project even if their suggestion is a brilliant one. So a response like "Patches welcome" or "Yes we'd like that too but this is on the backburner and not a priority" would be fine. Instead the response too often is along the lines of "that is not in our vision and there is no use case". I've also infuriatingly gotten a "patches welcome" response before, and then simply faced the "that's not in our vision" response upon providing a patch. It's not that there was a problem with my patch (there may have been, but the conversation didn't get that far), and I got the feeling that "patches welcome" was just a way of kicking the can down the road to make me go away. Am now very hesitant to provide patches to GNOME projects unless I can see that the core developers are explicitly in favor of a change in advance. Honestly, it's a few bad eggs in the project and not the majority - but it leaves an extremely sour taste in my mouth as someone who has been participating in FOSS for a long time. And on the CoC discussion, I can't help but notice that the most abrasive participants seem to be the ones most likely to have rainbows and pronouns in their bio. Hypocrites.

md8z 5y ago
"I've also infuriatingly gotten a 'patches welcome' response before, and then simply faced the 'that's not in our vision' response upon providing a patch." That has been my experience on quite a few FOSS projects. I had to learn that the hard way (on other projects, not GNOME). Some are more conservative than others, some may delay making a decision until after they get a patch, etc. Ultimately, since it's your time, you have to do your research before you decide to spend months working on a patch or however much time you plan. Since GNOME is a large umbrella project then it can vary between sub-projects, I have noticed the ones that are popular and user-facing tend to have a much higher bar for contribution and are much more "cathedral-like" in their design approach, and they kind of have to be if they want to have any kind of semblance of stability. So I don't think it really helps much to blame any project for this or call them "bad eggs", it's their choice of how they want to do things.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  I doubt stability was their intentions. They completely destroyed 3.38 compatibility, and all the poor bastards like me who decided to update their distro got a completely broken desktop. And I mean completely broken, too: my wallpaper was gone, every single extension broke, apps would no longer appear system-native when I defined a stylesheet and GNOME apps themselves looked inconsistent and glued-together. I really recommend reading Tobias Bernard and other GNOME representative's blogs. Not because they're insightful, but because the self-righteousness that they use to talk about fairly personal and benign things completely clouds their view of the community. People complain about inconsistent apps: his solution is to destroy the theming ecosystem instead of fixing the shit that's wrong in Adwaita. People complain about broken extentions: his solution is to tell people that extentions are dumb, and you shouldn't be using them anyways. People complain about a toxic working environment: his response is to draft an even more exclusive CoC with vaguer rules and no precedent for enforcement. There are so many of these little anecdotes that it blows my mind they even have a desktop left at this point. Like you say, it's free software so I can't complain too much. Nevertheless, it's wild to see how a perfectly functional desktop has lost the majority of it's beloved features with nothing more than a few philosophy adjustments.
  - md8z 5y ago
    Sorry that was your experience but you should probably know, stylesheets and extensions have never actually been considered stable. I don't know what distribution you were using but if you were using those things, it would probably make sense to wait until they're fully tested before upgrading. If all the extensions/stylesheets you're using are complex then it seems it would take a lot more time to update those, sadly. Yes I know this thread is trying to make a comment about unstable software, there are plenty of "stable" desktops you could use but in my experience those have a lot less feature velocity than the big "umbrella" projects. So it's a really trade-off, it seems that at some point you will have to sacrifice some of those beloved features if you want to prioritize something else, such as stability or portability or design choices or anything else really. I've read the blogs and I don't really agree with any of your comments in the second paragraph, especially the part about destroying themes. I'm currently developing against libadwaita and one of the benefits that it (already) brings is much better theming support. I also have never actually seen the code of conduct enforced on anybody, most people I interact with are very respectful. Although if you have something you want to ask to Tobias then you might consider asking him directly, I can't speak for him. Just please remember to be kind.
Mikeb85 5y ago
> I still see GNOME as the most practical DE to run - but it's telling that absolutely nobody uses it as shipped: at minimum they install dash to dock or dash to panel, re-enable minimise buttons, and install a system tray extension. And all those things can be done easily, intuitively, through a GUI. Kind of a testament to Gnome if you ask me. I don't mind the default behaviour though. Minimalist and nice.
- doubleunplussed 5y ago
  If you are in the know and are aware that dash to panel, dash to dock, and whichever system tray extension is the one maintained by the Ubuntu developers are the ones you want. Otherwise you get one of the million broken extensions. And this is after figuring out how to install a browser extension (from the browser extension store) and the "connector" library from your package manager, to be able to install shell extensions from the browser. I wouldn't call it intuitive at all. And the re-enabling of minimise buttons is in gnome-tweaks, which you have to install separately, and which I'm used to, but is a bit weird to put such crucial functionality in a separate settings app. Good thing Ubuntu sets these things up by default for their users.

md8z 5y ago

"I've also infuriatingly gotten a 'patches welcome' response before, and then simply faced the 'that's not in our vision' response upon providing a patch." That has been my experience on quite a few FOSS projects. I had to learn that the hard way (on other projects, not GNOME). Some are more conservative than others, some may delay making a decision until after they get a patch, etc. Ultimately, since it's your time, you have to do your research before you decide to spend months working on a patch or however much time you plan. Since GNOME is a large umbrella project then it can vary between sub-projects, I have noticed the ones that are popular and user-facing tend to have a much higher bar for contribution and are much more "cathedral-like" in their design approach, and they kind of have to be if they want to have any kind of semblance of stability. So I don't think it really helps much to blame any project for this or call them "bad eggs", it's their choice of how they want to do things.

smoldesu 5y ago
I doubt stability was their intentions. They completely destroyed 3.38 compatibility, and all the poor bastards like me who decided to update their distro got a completely broken desktop. And I mean completely broken, too: my wallpaper was gone, every single extension broke, apps would no longer appear system-native when I defined a stylesheet and GNOME apps themselves looked inconsistent and glued-together. I really recommend reading Tobias Bernard and other GNOME representative's blogs. Not because they're insightful, but because the self-righteousness that they use to talk about fairly personal and benign things completely clouds their view of the community. People complain about inconsistent apps: his solution is to destroy the theming ecosystem instead of fixing the shit that's wrong in Adwaita. People complain about broken extentions: his solution is to tell people that extentions are dumb, and you shouldn't be using them anyways. People complain about a toxic working environment: his response is to draft an even more exclusive CoC with vaguer rules and no precedent for enforcement. There are so many of these little anecdotes that it blows my mind they even have a desktop left at this point. Like you say, it's free software so I can't complain too much. Nevertheless, it's wild to see how a perfectly functional desktop has lost the majority of it's beloved features with nothing more than a few philosophy adjustments.
- md8z 5y ago
  Sorry that was your experience but you should probably know, stylesheets and extensions have never actually been considered stable. I don't know what distribution you were using but if you were using those things, it would probably make sense to wait until they're fully tested before upgrading. If all the extensions/stylesheets you're using are complex then it seems it would take a lot more time to update those, sadly. Yes I know this thread is trying to make a comment about unstable software, there are plenty of "stable" desktops you could use but in my experience those have a lot less feature velocity than the big "umbrella" projects. So it's a really trade-off, it seems that at some point you will have to sacrifice some of those beloved features if you want to prioritize something else, such as stability or portability or design choices or anything else really. I've read the blogs and I don't really agree with any of your comments in the second paragraph, especially the part about destroying themes. I'm currently developing against libadwaita and one of the benefits that it (already) brings is much better theming support. I also have never actually seen the code of conduct enforced on anybody, most people I interact with are very respectful. Although if you have something you want to ask to Tobias then you might consider asking him directly, I can't speak for him. Just please remember to be kind.

Mikeb85 5y ago

> I still see GNOME as the most practical DE to run - but it's telling that absolutely nobody uses it as shipped: at minimum they install dash to dock or dash to panel, re-enable minimise buttons, and install a system tray extension. And all those things can be done easily, intuitively, through a GUI. Kind of a testament to Gnome if you ask me. I don't mind the default behaviour though. Minimalist and nice.

doubleunplussed 5y ago
If you are in the know and are aware that dash to panel, dash to dock, and whichever system tray extension is the one maintained by the Ubuntu developers are the ones you want. Otherwise you get one of the million broken extensions. And this is after figuring out how to install a browser extension (from the browser extension store) and the "connector" library from your package manager, to be able to install shell extensions from the browser. I wouldn't call it intuitive at all. And the re-enabling of minimise buttons is in gnome-tweaks, which you have to install separately, and which I'm used to, but is a bit weird to put such crucial functionality in a separate settings app. Good thing Ubuntu sets these things up by default for their users.