5 ms·

Yeah maybe this is nice the first time. But do you know what? The second time everyone knows. The third time paper tests are back.

grayhatter 5y ago
Is that a bad thing? Ignoring for the moment the idea of cheating on tests is a problem with the student or the test. Are paper tests a bad thing? Why do intelligent state voting systems depend on paper, or backups? Why do ultra high security computer systems still log to paper?
- chromanoid 5y ago
  Well, it brings kids in front of a computer and teachers save time. Google Forms Quiz has a grading and summary feature: * Frequently missed questions * Graphs marked with correct answers * Average, median, and range of scores
  - grayhatter 5y ago
    Kids who would be able to take a test via computer are near the set of kids who have a cellphone within 2 meters of their hand at all times. Access to, and technological literacy is not the problems facing the generation of people taking tests today. Whereas, everything is broken is currently, and still looking like the problems of both today, and tomorrow. In part because people are willing to implement user hostile features like disabling the ability to fix bugs on your own.
    - chromanoid 5y ago
      This is not user hostile. In this case the user is the teacher not the kid. Man, do they really have to deploy iPads in kiosk mode for shitty tests so you don't shit on them? Teachers do their best to optimize and digitize teaching under the worst circumstances. If this litte bugfix helps them I am happy. Please note that this feature is part of managed Chrome which can be restricted in many other ways. The exam workstation itself of course too.
      - grayhatter 5y ago
        > This is not user hostile. In this case the user is the teacher not the kid. Then what is the kid? And who is *using* the computer to take the test? And who is *using* the browser? And who is *using* Chromium that would like to learn something about the source, that now has view-source disabled? Are they not users, just because someone else wrote the test? > Man, do they really have to deploy iPads in kiosk mode for shitty tests so you don't shit on them? Teachers do their best to optimize and digitize teaching under the worst circumstances. If this litte bugfix helps them I am happy. I'm happy to help teachers too, but this helps them by hurting others. That's *not* ok! > Please note that this feature is part of managed Chrome which can be restricted in many other ways. The exam workstation itself of course too. Sure, but that's still wrong. Just because bad thing is bad, or closer to how you put it, there's other things you can't do with this software. Doesn't mean that adding more restrictions is a good thing.
        chromanoid 5y ago
        So they have to build an app for exams that never had features they would have to deactivate to satisfy your irrational idea of wrongness?
        grayhatter 5y ago
        No, I think that's a bad idea too. I think the test that's sent to the client shouldn't have the answers inside the test itself. We keep comparing this to paper tests, what's a better solution, printing the answers on the back side of paper test, and then gluing another piece of paper over the answers? Or not printing the answer on the back of the test?
        chromanoid 5y ago
        > No, I think that's a bad idea too. I think the test that's sent to the client shouldn't have the answers inside the test itself. We keep comparing this to paper tests, what's a better solution, printing the answers on the back side of paper test, and then gluing another piece of paper over the answers? Or not printing the answer on the back of the test? So server side security is in this case better because it's a more clean solution? In this case the cleanliness of the solution is irrelevant as long as it works. Students can always sneak in attach a keylogger to the teacher's keyboard and read out the password for accessing all tests. It's about erecting a barrier that is good enough.
adamparsons 5y ago
If the best they can supply is an online exam document that literally contains answers in the html document, then maybe paper exams should come back while they think about what they’ve done and try again later
- chromanoid 5y ago
  Wow, you seem to ride a really high horse if this is the hill you want to die on. As if technical debt and subpar solutions are totally alien to software developers.
  - grayhatter 5y ago
    I think you're trying to say something close to perfect is the enemy of good. Which I totally agree with. But worse than what we have now, isn't an acceptable stepping stone because things might get better. If teachers can't write tests that students can't cheat on without using paper, then we still need paper. While yes, theses tests are broken. The problem isn't the test, the issue is breaking something useful, so that we can have something that might get better some day. No, it won't get better. More people will depend on putting answers in the html source code delivered to clients, and everything will keep being shit. I'm perfectly happy to die on this hill. But the hill isn't "subpar solutions can never be used, everything must be perfect from commit 0" The hill I'm willing to die on is "Don't break something that's currently good, to fix something that's already horribly broken and bad." Which I' argue is a good hill to die on.
    - chromanoid 5y ago
      > If teachers can't write tests that students can't cheat on without using paper, then we still need paper. LOL. Teachers will never be able to prevent students from cheating. This will only help against a very easily accessible way of cheating that would otherwise render Google Forms Quiz useless for teachers. They don't remove your precious feature. I would fight against this too, if they would. They just allow admins to restrict it on workstations they manage. Just having a shitty electron app in Windows kiosk mode is the alternative... which I thinks is definitely worse. You seem to unknowingly argue against straw men!
Shared404 5y ago
But the seed has been planted, and the computers will be used for other things - which means other chances at inspiration. And besides, if everyone knew for that second test then that's a lot of seeds right there alone.
- chromanoid 5y ago
  In my years in the school we had many "inspirations". We wrote Turbo Pascal based phishing CLIs, decrypted PWL files, exploited wrongly set access rights etc. I don't see a point where making this kind of stuff secure in another more targeted way (e.g. central exam server) is helping in any way. You can still held hacker competitions in computer science classes anyway (hopefully mandatory for all).
  - Shared404 5y ago
    Based on my somewhat recent high school experience, mandatory computer science classes will not happen at a high school level on a consistent basis between schools, at least not without massive systemic change. What "computer" class is these days is "MS Office" class. Except actually it's "MS Word and Excel class, except the teacher only ever calls it "the typing thing". And even if there were sanctioned hacker competitions, they would become classwork and therefore boring. The fact that it is against the rules is part of the draw. For what it's worth, I think there's something to be said for leaving a situation like this inherently insecure. Yes it's manipulative, but somebody learning something from their own drive is a lot better than standardized testing beating it into the infodump section of the brain. Your "inspirations" sound quite enjoyable! You were definitely much more skilled than me or anyone I knew.
    - chromanoid 5y ago
      I don't think holding wargames in class would make them boring because of that. I would've enjoyed such a thing. For normal classes some kind of "hacking adventure" where using view source and other tricks to move forward is necessary I also don't see any boring faces. The teacher who sells this stuff to the children is key here. This is why teachers should have as much time for preparation as possible. At best this preparation would be like preparation of an actor (with extensive knowledge of the plot), because everything else is already at hand (just my idea of what teachers should be).

grayhatter 5y ago

Is that a bad thing? Ignoring for the moment the idea of cheating on tests is a problem with the student or the test. Are paper tests a bad thing? Why do intelligent state voting systems depend on paper, or backups? Why do ultra high security computer systems still log to paper?

chromanoid 5y ago
Well, it brings kids in front of a computer and teachers save time. Google Forms Quiz has a grading and summary feature: * Frequently missed questions * Graphs marked with correct answers * Average, median, and range of scores
- grayhatter 5y ago
  Kids who would be able to take a test via computer are near the set of kids who have a cellphone within 2 meters of their hand at all times. Access to, and technological literacy is not the problems facing the generation of people taking tests today. Whereas, everything is broken is currently, and still looking like the problems of both today, and tomorrow. In part because people are willing to implement user hostile features like disabling the ability to fix bugs on your own.
  - chromanoid 5y ago
    This is not user hostile. In this case the user is the teacher not the kid. Man, do they really have to deploy iPads in kiosk mode for shitty tests so you don't shit on them? Teachers do their best to optimize and digitize teaching under the worst circumstances. If this litte bugfix helps them I am happy. Please note that this feature is part of managed Chrome which can be restricted in many other ways. The exam workstation itself of course too.
    - grayhatter 5y ago
      > This is not user hostile. In this case the user is the teacher not the kid. Then what is the kid? And who is *using* the computer to take the test? And who is *using* the browser? And who is *using* Chromium that would like to learn something about the source, that now has view-source disabled? Are they not users, just because someone else wrote the test? > Man, do they really have to deploy iPads in kiosk mode for shitty tests so you don't shit on them? Teachers do their best to optimize and digitize teaching under the worst circumstances. If this litte bugfix helps them I am happy. I'm happy to help teachers too, but this helps them by hurting others. That's *not* ok! > Please note that this feature is part of managed Chrome which can be restricted in many other ways. The exam workstation itself of course too. Sure, but that's still wrong. Just because bad thing is bad, or closer to how you put it, there's other things you can't do with this software. Doesn't mean that adding more restrictions is a good thing.
      - chromanoid 5y ago
        So they have to build an app for exams that never had features they would have to deactivate to satisfy your irrational idea of wrongness?
        grayhatter 5y ago
        No, I think that's a bad idea too. I think the test that's sent to the client shouldn't have the answers inside the test itself. We keep comparing this to paper tests, what's a better solution, printing the answers on the back side of paper test, and then gluing another piece of paper over the answers? Or not printing the answer on the back of the test?
        chromanoid 5y ago
        > No, I think that's a bad idea too. I think the test that's sent to the client shouldn't have the answers inside the test itself. We keep comparing this to paper tests, what's a better solution, printing the answers on the back side of paper test, and then gluing another piece of paper over the answers? Or not printing the answer on the back of the test? So server side security is in this case better because it's a more clean solution? In this case the cleanliness of the solution is irrelevant as long as it works. Students can always sneak in attach a keylogger to the teacher's keyboard and read out the password for accessing all tests. It's about erecting a barrier that is good enough.

adamparsons 5y ago

If the best they can supply is an online exam document that literally contains answers in the html document, then maybe paper exams should come back while they think about what they’ve done and try again later

chromanoid 5y ago
Wow, you seem to ride a really high horse if this is the hill you want to die on. As if technical debt and subpar solutions are totally alien to software developers.
- grayhatter 5y ago
  I think you're trying to say something close to perfect is the enemy of good. Which I totally agree with. But worse than what we have now, isn't an acceptable stepping stone because things might get better. If teachers can't write tests that students can't cheat on without using paper, then we still need paper. While yes, theses tests are broken. The problem isn't the test, the issue is breaking something useful, so that we can have something that might get better some day. No, it won't get better. More people will depend on putting answers in the html source code delivered to clients, and everything will keep being shit. I'm perfectly happy to die on this hill. But the hill isn't "subpar solutions can never be used, everything must be perfect from commit 0" The hill I'm willing to die on is "Don't break something that's currently good, to fix something that's already horribly broken and bad." Which I' argue is a good hill to die on.
  - chromanoid 5y ago
    > If teachers can't write tests that students can't cheat on without using paper, then we still need paper. LOL. Teachers will never be able to prevent students from cheating. This will only help against a very easily accessible way of cheating that would otherwise render Google Forms Quiz useless for teachers. They don't remove your precious feature. I would fight against this too, if they would. They just allow admins to restrict it on workstations they manage. Just having a shitty electron app in Windows kiosk mode is the alternative... which I thinks is definitely worse. You seem to unknowingly argue against straw men!

Shared404 5y ago

But the seed has been planted, and the computers will be used for other things - which means other chances at inspiration. And besides, if everyone knew for that second test then that's a lot of seeds right there alone.

chromanoid 5y ago
In my years in the school we had many "inspirations". We wrote Turbo Pascal based phishing CLIs, decrypted PWL files, exploited wrongly set access rights etc. I don't see a point where making this kind of stuff secure in another more targeted way (e.g. central exam server) is helping in any way. You can still held hacker competitions in computer science classes anyway (hopefully mandatory for all).
- Shared404 5y ago
  Based on my somewhat recent high school experience, mandatory computer science classes will not happen at a high school level on a consistent basis between schools, at least not without massive systemic change. What "computer" class is these days is "MS Office" class. Except actually it's "MS Word and Excel class, except the teacher only ever calls it "the typing thing". And even if there were sanctioned hacker competitions, they would become classwork and therefore boring. The fact that it is against the rules is part of the draw. For what it's worth, I think there's something to be said for leaving a situation like this inherently insecure. Yes it's manipulative, but somebody learning something from their own drive is a lot better than standardized testing beating it into the infodump section of the brain. Your "inspirations" sound quite enjoyable! You were definitely much more skilled than me or anyone I knew.
  - chromanoid 5y ago
    I don't think holding wargames in class would make them boring because of that. I would've enjoyed such a thing. For normal classes some kind of "hacking adventure" where using view source and other tricks to move forward is necessary I also don't see any boring faces. The teacher who sells this stuff to the children is key here. This is why teachers should have as much time for preparation as possible. At best this preparation would be like preparation of an actor (with extensive knowledge of the plot), because everything else is already at hand (just my idea of what teachers should be).