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But at this point you don't actually need to subsidize solar with respect to coal you just have to discontinue all coal and oil subsidies and the free market do

But at this point you don't actually need to subsidize solar with respect to coal you just have to discontinue all coal and oil subsidies and the free market does this organically. There are places where nuclear makes more sense but now that solar has dropped in price by 10x it is incredibly competitive. Can't we just let the free market work this out?

have_faith 5y ago
What are the consequences to the poor of removing these subsidies in the short term? It reminds me of Chesterton’s fence. It doesn’t feel like a problem of markets, it seems like a problem of will from people in power. What’s the guarantee that the free market will move in a favourable direction with regards to the environment?
- varelse 5y ago
  Because people are cheap and they don't like spending money and as soon as coal and oil are expensive they'll stop using it just like when you tell them they're fired if they don't get vaccinated most of them get vaccinated but please more downvotes because you want the world to work differently even though it doesn't. And by people I mean the 0.1 percenters who provide electricity and love those dividends they got off the backs of the rest of us not upgrading their systems and then whined about bankruptcy the minute anyone tried to hold them accountable. We're talking the same people who now want to put a tax on going off grid and installing solar because reasons and racism and s___ https://calcoastnews.com/2021/11/pge-claims-home-solar-is-racist-wants-to-gut-program/ https://calcoastnews.com/2021/11/pge-claims-home-solar-is-ra... I mean if coal is such a great solution why isn't it competitive and why do you hate free markets? Starting to think you might actually hate freedom and America. What could be more freedom(tm) than an open level playing field competition for our future?
  - syshum 5y ago
    >>Because people are cheap and they don't like spending money and as soon as coal and oil are expensive they'll stop using it just like when you tell them they're fired if they don't get vaccinated most of them get vaccinated While true, it does not make these actions ethical. Using threats of violence( and yes the mandates are threats of violence) to obtain a result you desire is unethical no matter how much you believe that action to be necessary. Once you use coercion via state violence to get your way you have lost all moral and ethical authority. >>And by people I mean the 0.1 percenters The problem here is the comment you were replying to asked about the poor, who if their heat bill goes up by 20% will have to choose between food and heat, will have to tell their kids "no Christmas for you this year" etc. You seemly have no concern for these people. To be clear, I am on your side when it comes to ending subsidies, though all subsidies including though on "green" energy as well I just do not think your argumentation is valid or going to win the hearts and minds of anyone
    - varelse 5y ago
      So 130,000 households in the United States, mostly in Pennsylvania, heated their houses with coal in 2019. https://www.npr.org/2019/03/03/699325560/for-the-few-who-heat-homes-with-coal-its-still-king https://www.npr.org/2019/03/03/699325560/for-the-few-who-hea... And for those 130,000 households you would prefer to screw over the remaining 127.9 million so they can keep doing so. If you bothered to read the article some of those houses are 2400 square feet so I don't think the guy's poor at least in that case. Or for $6.5B we could implement cash for coal and subsidized adding solar to their house and an electric heat pump or heater. And for those are solar isn't feasible we could just subsidize the electricity and give them the heating for a lot less. Compare and contrast with the $1.7T budget for the f-35 stealth fighter and this is chump change. And before you whine about jobs and other canned talking points to keep doing exactly what we're doing, we can early retire the entire 42,000 coal industry workforce for $12B. Now for the 2.4 million houses heating their homes with wood, those are bigger numbers but at least it's not coal. As for the vaccine mandates any violence perpetrated on those who won't get vaccinated is vastly exceeded by the violence they are inflicting on spreading this pandemic and murdering Americans and destroying our economy and geopolitical competitiveness. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Get used to it. Or move to Pennsylvania and build a house heated by coal in a town that hates vaccines. There's a whole bunch of them there I used to live there. And yes remove all the energy subsidies and stop getting in the way of nuclear power as well. We're long overdue to disrupt the energy industry and it's just not that expensive to do it.

have_faith 5y ago

What are the consequences to the poor of removing these subsidies in the short term? It reminds me of Chesterton’s fence. It doesn’t feel like a problem of markets, it seems like a problem of will from people in power. What’s the guarantee that the free market will move in a favourable direction with regards to the environment?

varelse 5y ago
Because people are cheap and they don't like spending money and as soon as coal and oil are expensive they'll stop using it just like when you tell them they're fired if they don't get vaccinated most of them get vaccinated but please more downvotes because you want the world to work differently even though it doesn't. And by people I mean the 0.1 percenters who provide electricity and love those dividends they got off the backs of the rest of us not upgrading their systems and then whined about bankruptcy the minute anyone tried to hold them accountable. We're talking the same people who now want to put a tax on going off grid and installing solar because reasons and racism and s___ https://calcoastnews.com/2021/11/pge-claims-home-solar-is-racist-wants-to-gut-program/ https://calcoastnews.com/2021/11/pge-claims-home-solar-is-ra... I mean if coal is such a great solution why isn't it competitive and why do you hate free markets? Starting to think you might actually hate freedom and America. What could be more freedom(tm) than an open level playing field competition for our future?
- syshum 5y ago
  >>Because people are cheap and they don't like spending money and as soon as coal and oil are expensive they'll stop using it just like when you tell them they're fired if they don't get vaccinated most of them get vaccinated While true, it does not make these actions ethical. Using threats of violence( and yes the mandates are threats of violence) to obtain a result you desire is unethical no matter how much you believe that action to be necessary. Once you use coercion via state violence to get your way you have lost all moral and ethical authority. >>And by people I mean the 0.1 percenters The problem here is the comment you were replying to asked about the poor, who if their heat bill goes up by 20% will have to choose between food and heat, will have to tell their kids "no Christmas for you this year" etc. You seemly have no concern for these people. To be clear, I am on your side when it comes to ending subsidies, though all subsidies including though on "green" energy as well I just do not think your argumentation is valid or going to win the hearts and minds of anyone
  - varelse 5y ago
    So 130,000 households in the United States, mostly in Pennsylvania, heated their houses with coal in 2019. https://www.npr.org/2019/03/03/699325560/for-the-few-who-heat-homes-with-coal-its-still-king https://www.npr.org/2019/03/03/699325560/for-the-few-who-hea... And for those 130,000 households you would prefer to screw over the remaining 127.9 million so they can keep doing so. If you bothered to read the article some of those houses are 2400 square feet so I don't think the guy's poor at least in that case. Or for $6.5B we could implement cash for coal and subsidized adding solar to their house and an electric heat pump or heater. And for those are solar isn't feasible we could just subsidize the electricity and give them the heating for a lot less. Compare and contrast with the $1.7T budget for the f-35 stealth fighter and this is chump change. And before you whine about jobs and other canned talking points to keep doing exactly what we're doing, we can early retire the entire 42,000 coal industry workforce for $12B. Now for the 2.4 million houses heating their homes with wood, those are bigger numbers but at least it's not coal. As for the vaccine mandates any violence perpetrated on those who won't get vaccinated is vastly exceeded by the violence they are inflicting on spreading this pandemic and murdering Americans and destroying our economy and geopolitical competitiveness. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Get used to it. Or move to Pennsylvania and build a house heated by coal in a town that hates vaccines. There's a whole bunch of them there I used to live there. And yes remove all the energy subsidies and stop getting in the way of nuclear power as well. We're long overdue to disrupt the energy industry and it's just not that expensive to do it.