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>I would be in favor of massively progressive taxation of large companies Say goodbye to electric cars.

fabianhjr 5y ago
> As of December 2020, China had the largest stock of highway legal plug-in passenger cars with over 4.5 million units, 42% of the global plug-in car fleet in use.[10][20] China also dominates the plug-in light commercial vehicle and electric bus deployment, with its stock reaching over 500,000 buses in 2019, 98% of the global stock, and 247,500 electric light commercial vehicles, 65% of the global fleet.[21] Source: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/New_energy_vehicles_in_China https://www.wikiwand.com/en/New_energy_vehicles_in_China The difference isn't on taxation but investment; China invests way more in infrastructure and development. > Tesla Motors Inc., SolarCity Corp. and Space Exploration Technologies Corp., known as SpaceX, together have benefited from an estimated $4.9 billion in government support, according to data compiled by The Times. The figure underscores a common theme running through his emerging empire: a public-private financing model underpinning long-shot start-ups. Source: https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-201...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- baybal2 5y ago
  Taxations is definitely different. Please check what Chinese tax rates are, and costs of doing business in China. In short, for those who don't want to lookup it themselves, it's way, way more, probably higher than even most highly taxed EU countries. I just 5 something years, Chinese manufacturing economy became completely unrecognisable. It's a hot money game now in a way US stock market will look rather decent, and logical.
- archibaldJ 5y ago
  Taxation in China (at least by law) is quite comparable to Germany's (40+% when you reach ~$144k) but without all the social benefits. Unlike Germany, there are gray areas in the Chinese system where people find ways to pay less tax. But there are also other cost-inducing things than tax. In lights of the evergrande crisis, I'm not sure how efficient China's hugely state-directed investment system is. And much won't be achieved had there not been Deng's economic reforms and the tax indulgence that followed. More than anything, high taxation stifles innovations in China. What you see in China is not real innovation (in the sense of inventing new things), but social-mobility [1] as a consequence of authoritarianism which can result in mass adoption of technologies, etc. Also, considering the recent Tang Ping (躺平) movement, I don't think China's social-economy is currently in a healthy state. [1] https://andrewbatson.com/2021/10/13/mobilization-and-modules-whats-changing-in-china/ https://andrewbatson.com/2021/10/13/mobilization-and-modules...
  - fabianhjr 5y ago
    > recent Tang Ping (躺平) movement, I don't think China's social-economy is currently in a healthy state. Well, it is not like an antiwork movement has been forming on the US and is gaining mainstream traction. ( https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/ https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/ ) > In lights of the evergrande crisis, I'm not sure how efficient China's hugely state-directed investment system is. How is a private developer that overleveraged itself the fault of a state that is investing in _public infrastructure_ like high speed rail, nuclear reactors, and tech in general? Since anything vital is public property they can do what self-called capitalists in the US cannot: let evergrande fail. (No private company in China is "too big to fail")
    - rsj_hn 5y ago
      > How is a private developer [...] > No private company in China is "too big to fail" The biggest companies in China are state owned enterprises with large ownership positions by communist party insiders. Not only are they not allowed to fail, their share price often isn't allowed to fall. They borrow money at interest rates below the rate of inflation and often never need to pay it back. This creates a zombie banking system that is periodically recapitalized by the government, and is also capitalized by households who receive interest rates below the rate of inflation on their deposits. This then creates a shadow banking system where households, not wanting to leave their money in official banks, search for yield, for example investing in real estate or really anything that will at least keep up with inflation and at best offer a positive return. You have pig farmers stockpiling copper. This was why the bitcoin craze took off so much in China. Households are looking for anything, anything to preserve their wealth. This explains the phenomena of Evergrande holdings -- it is not just a private developer that "overleveraged itself", it's the direct consequence of Chinese subsidies to State Owned Enterprises. These SOE's then burn money on everything from building exact replicas of small Swiss villages to creating electric buses and absolutely everything in between. When you are paid to lose money and are politically connected, a whole host of investment opportunities becomes available. These SOEs will not be wound down. Evergrande, however, will be wound down, but only to be replaced by the next big construction conglomerate because Chinese households aren't going to leave their money in the bank. However households, by lending to firms, cannot rid themselves of excess deposits - that requires a financial sector that faces market discipline on the liability side of its balance sheet, which Chinese banks do not. They do not face discipline on either the asset nor the liability side, as credit analysis is determined as much by political connections as any kind of business fundamental. You are going to have a hard time even getting proper books for these businesses, which is why we find out which ones fail only when they can't make a bond payment. Therefore as long as these financing, ownership, and regulatory arrangements are in place, you are going to have the current crazy investment market where the state firms never go bankrupt but the private firms or those firms not well connected with party insiders are regularly going bankrupt. This does not mean that capital is being allocated wisely, even if it does mean that your favorite infrastructure projects are more likely to get funded in China. But that's only because everyone's favorite infrastructure projects are more likely to get funded in China, from completely empty shopping malls, to empty apartment buildings, to empty airports, to bizarre tourist attractions, enormous 400 foot tall gold-covered statues of the buddha, it will all get funded in China, at taxpayer expense, and none of it will ever be marked to market. But from the bird's eye view, you see a nation where the private consumption share of GDP is now below 38%, the remaining 62% spent on enormous Buddhas, electric buses, vast shopping malls, and yes, empty apartment buildings constructed by Evergrande.
spaetzleesser 5y ago
Tesla didn’t need a trillion dollar valuation to have an impact on the car market. When Apple, Google or Microsoft made their biggest contributions to innovation they also were much smaller. Now they are just milking their market position for profit without generating much innovation.

> As of December 2020, China had the largest stock of highway legal plug-in passenger cars with over 4.5 million units, 42% of the global plug-in car fleet in use.[10][20] China also dominates the plug-in light commercial vehicle and electric bus deployment, with its stock reaching over 500,000 buses in 2019, 98% of the global stock, and 247,500 electric light commercial vehicles, 65% of the global fleet.[21] Source: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/New_energy_vehicles_in_China https://www.wikiwand.com/en/New_energy_vehicles_in_China The difference isn't on taxation but investment; China invests way more in infrastructure and development. > Tesla Motors Inc., SolarCity Corp. and Space Exploration Technologies Corp., known as SpaceX, together have benefited from an estimated $4.9 billion in government support, according to data compiled by The Times. The figure underscores a common theme running through his emerging empire: a public-private financing model underpinning long-shot start-ups. Source: https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-201...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
baybal2 5y ago
Taxations is definitely different. Please check what Chinese tax rates are, and costs of doing business in China. In short, for those who don't want to lookup it themselves, it's way, way more, probably higher than even most highly taxed EU countries. I just 5 something years, Chinese manufacturing economy became completely unrecognisable. It's a hot money game now in a way US stock market will look rather decent, and logical.
archibaldJ 5y ago
Taxation in China (at least by law) is quite comparable to Germany's (40+% when you reach ~$144k) but without all the social benefits. Unlike Germany, there are gray areas in the Chinese system where people find ways to pay less tax. But there are also other cost-inducing things than tax. In lights of the evergrande crisis, I'm not sure how efficient China's hugely state-directed investment system is. And much won't be achieved had there not been Deng's economic reforms and the tax indulgence that followed. More than anything, high taxation stifles innovations in China. What you see in China is not real innovation (in the sense of inventing new things), but social-mobility [1] as a consequence of authoritarianism which can result in mass adoption of technologies, etc. Also, considering the recent Tang Ping (躺平) movement, I don't think China's social-economy is currently in a healthy state. [1] https://andrewbatson.com/2021/10/13/mobilization-and-modules-whats-changing-in-china/ https://andrewbatson.com/2021/10/13/mobilization-and-modules...
- fabianhjr 5y ago
  > recent Tang Ping (躺平) movement, I don't think China's social-economy is currently in a healthy state. Well, it is not like an antiwork movement has been forming on the US and is gaining mainstream traction. ( https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/ https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/ ) > In lights of the evergrande crisis, I'm not sure how efficient China's hugely state-directed investment system is. How is a private developer that overleveraged itself the fault of a state that is investing in _public infrastructure_ like high speed rail, nuclear reactors, and tech in general? Since anything vital is public property they can do what self-called capitalists in the US cannot: let evergrande fail. (No private company in China is "too big to fail")
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    > How is a private developer [...] > No private company in China is "too big to fail" The biggest companies in China are state owned enterprises with large ownership positions by communist party insiders. Not only are they not allowed to fail, their share price often isn't allowed to fall. They borrow money at interest rates below the rate of inflation and often never need to pay it back. This creates a zombie banking system that is periodically recapitalized by the government, and is also capitalized by households who receive interest rates below the rate of inflation on their deposits. This then creates a shadow banking system where households, not wanting to leave their money in official banks, search for yield, for example investing in real estate or really anything that will at least keep up with inflation and at best offer a positive return. You have pig farmers stockpiling copper. This was why the bitcoin craze took off so much in China. Households are looking for anything, anything to preserve their wealth. This explains the phenomena of Evergrande holdings -- it is not just a private developer that "overleveraged itself", it's the direct consequence of Chinese subsidies to State Owned Enterprises. These SOE's then burn money on everything from building exact replicas of small Swiss villages to creating electric buses and absolutely everything in between. When you are paid to lose money and are politically connected, a whole host of investment opportunities becomes available. These SOEs will not be wound down. Evergrande, however, will be wound down, but only to be replaced by the next big construction conglomerate because Chinese households aren't going to leave their money in the bank. However households, by lending to firms, cannot rid themselves of excess deposits - that requires a financial sector that faces market discipline on the liability side of its balance sheet, which Chinese banks do not. They do not face discipline on either the asset nor the liability side, as credit analysis is determined as much by political connections as any kind of business fundamental. You are going to have a hard time even getting proper books for these businesses, which is why we find out which ones fail only when they can't make a bond payment. Therefore as long as these financing, ownership, and regulatory arrangements are in place, you are going to have the current crazy investment market where the state firms never go bankrupt but the private firms or those firms not well connected with party insiders are regularly going bankrupt. This does not mean that capital is being allocated wisely, even if it does mean that your favorite infrastructure projects are more likely to get funded in China. But that's only because everyone's favorite infrastructure projects are more likely to get funded in China, from completely empty shopping malls, to empty apartment buildings, to empty airports, to bizarre tourist attractions, enormous 400 foot tall gold-covered statues of the buddha, it will all get funded in China, at taxpayer expense, and none of it will ever be marked to market. But from the bird's eye view, you see a nation where the private consumption share of GDP is now below 38%, the remaining 62% spent on enormous Buddhas, electric buses, vast shopping malls, and yes, empty apartment buildings constructed by Evergrande.

spaetzleesser 5y ago

Tesla didn’t need a trillion dollar valuation to have an impact on the car market. When Apple, Google or Microsoft made their biggest contributions to innovation they also were much smaller. Now they are just milking their market position for profit without generating much innovation.