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I'd say that if you're an "admirer of Kind of Blue" who "generally likes bebop", you probably don't understand Miles' importance. It is certainly true that he h

I'd say that if you're an "admirer of Kind of Blue" who "generally likes bebop", you probably don't understand Miles' importance. It is certainly true that he had less influence on popular music than the Beatles did. But popularity isn't everything. J.S. Bach also had less influence on popular music than the Beatles did, even in his own time, during which he wasn't particularly popular. There's a depth to Miles' best that is only reached by a handful of people in in 20th century music. While the Beatles wrote fantastic pop songs, and while I am a major lifelong Beatles fan who has taken a lot of pleasure in studying just about every Beatles song from a music-theoretic framework, I don't feel they reached that level of depth except in A Day In The Life. John Coltrane is another person who went deep, particularly with A Love Supreme. And Miles' personal influence is such that John Coltrane might not have achieved what he achieved without Miles' personal mentorship.

rewgs 5y ago
Agree on all counts, though if I'm being pedantic... > J.S. Bach also had less influence on popular music than the Beatles did, even in his own time, during which he wasn't particularly popular. J.S. Bach is probably the single greatest influence on tonal, Western music, period, and thus an argument can be made that he had much more influence on pop music than The Beatles alone because without him, you don't have The Beatles. You can draw a straight line from him to literally everyone that came after him.
- garyrob 5y ago
  I don't think that's right. JS Bach was pretty much forgotten until he was rediscovered by Mendelssohn. The key event was in 1823 or 1824. "Felix's maternal grandmother, Bella Salomon, presented him with a gift that was to alter the course of his life: a copyist's manuscript score of J.S. Bach's St. Matthew Passion... The score seized Felix's imagination. Despite Bach's generally unfavorable reputation at this time (he was regarded as little more than a musical "mathematician," a reference to what would eventually be recognized as his extraordinary use of counterpoint and musical symmetry) and the numerous difficulties presented by the score (i.e., its complexity and the unfamiliarity of its language), Felix nevertheless conceived the idea of preparing the entire St. Matthew Passion for performance." And that started the process of JS Bach becoming known once again, eventually much more well-known than when he was alive. Bach was a genius, and probably the all-time greatest for counterpoint, but I think you're overstating his effect on the development of popular music. I'd actually assert that the Beatles ultimately owe more to John Dowland (a songwriter active in the late 1500's to early 1600's) than to Bach. I'm glad you agree about Miles though! :)
fortran77 5y ago
> J.S. Bach also had less influence on popular music than the Beatles did, I love the Beatles, but I'd _strongly_ disagree that Bach (and later Mozart or Beethoven) had less influence on popular music.
- garyrob 5y ago
  Try REALLY listening to Flow, My Tears by John Dowland[1], who died in the early 1600's, well before Bach was even born. It sounds almost like a particularly beautiful McCartney song. There has been a true popular songwriting tradition dating back to well before Bach, Beethoven, etc. that has much more to do with the Beatles than those composers did. I've been a Dowland fan for probably 40 years now. At some point after my own discovery of him, Sting recorded an album of his songs. I wasn't surprised at all. It's not an accident that he recorded Dowland, rather than Bach, etc. I am a major Beethoven fan and regularly listen to him (my most-listened-to Beethoven piece is the Hammerklavier sonata, which I listen to in several different performances with great attention to the differences). I'm not remotely ignorant of what somebody like Beethoven brought to the table. But the Beatles were much more influenced by the popular songwriting tradition going back to, and through, Dowland, combined with American blues, than they were by Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, etc. Even implicitly. The Beatles had a huge influence on popular music. First from a music theoretic standpoint, particularly with their use of flat-seventh chords as if they were "normal" chords. Second from their bringing non-rock traditions into the rock world, such as Indian music. Their effect was huge. As Dylan said about his experience of their breakout songs such as I Want To Hold Your Hand, they were “doing things no one else was doing. I knew they were pointing in the direction that music had to go.” He concluded, “It seemed to me a definite line was being drawn. This was something that never happened before.” I won't debate this any more, life's just too short, but I really suggest you deeply listen to Dowland, and then add the American blues to that, and then the harmonic and stylistic innovations of the Beatles, and consider specifically Bach had to add that had a larger effect on popular music. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85C1jX0P28k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85C1jX0P28k

rewgs 5y ago

Agree on all counts, though if I'm being pedantic... > J.S. Bach also had less influence on popular music than the Beatles did, even in his own time, during which he wasn't particularly popular. J.S. Bach is probably the single greatest influence on tonal, Western music, period, and thus an argument can be made that he had much more influence on pop music than The Beatles alone because without him, you don't have The Beatles. You can draw a straight line from him to literally everyone that came after him.

garyrob 5y ago
I don't think that's right. JS Bach was pretty much forgotten until he was rediscovered by Mendelssohn. The key event was in 1823 or 1824. "Felix's maternal grandmother, Bella Salomon, presented him with a gift that was to alter the course of his life: a copyist's manuscript score of J.S. Bach's St. Matthew Passion... The score seized Felix's imagination. Despite Bach's generally unfavorable reputation at this time (he was regarded as little more than a musical "mathematician," a reference to what would eventually be recognized as his extraordinary use of counterpoint and musical symmetry) and the numerous difficulties presented by the score (i.e., its complexity and the unfamiliarity of its language), Felix nevertheless conceived the idea of preparing the entire St. Matthew Passion for performance." And that started the process of JS Bach becoming known once again, eventually much more well-known than when he was alive. Bach was a genius, and probably the all-time greatest for counterpoint, but I think you're overstating his effect on the development of popular music. I'd actually assert that the Beatles ultimately owe more to John Dowland (a songwriter active in the late 1500's to early 1600's) than to Bach. I'm glad you agree about Miles though! :)

fortran77 5y ago

> J.S. Bach also had less influence on popular music than the Beatles did, I love the Beatles, but I'd _strongly_ disagree that Bach (and later Mozart or Beethoven) had less influence on popular music.

garyrob 5y ago
Try REALLY listening to Flow, My Tears by John Dowland[1], who died in the early 1600's, well before Bach was even born. It sounds almost like a particularly beautiful McCartney song. There has been a true popular songwriting tradition dating back to well before Bach, Beethoven, etc. that has much more to do with the Beatles than those composers did. I've been a Dowland fan for probably 40 years now. At some point after my own discovery of him, Sting recorded an album of his songs. I wasn't surprised at all. It's not an accident that he recorded Dowland, rather than Bach, etc. I am a major Beethoven fan and regularly listen to him (my most-listened-to Beethoven piece is the Hammerklavier sonata, which I listen to in several different performances with great attention to the differences). I'm not remotely ignorant of what somebody like Beethoven brought to the table. But the Beatles were much more influenced by the popular songwriting tradition going back to, and through, Dowland, combined with American blues, than they were by Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, etc. Even implicitly. The Beatles had a huge influence on popular music. First from a music theoretic standpoint, particularly with their use of flat-seventh chords as if they were "normal" chords. Second from their bringing non-rock traditions into the rock world, such as Indian music. Their effect was huge. As Dylan said about his experience of their breakout songs such as I Want To Hold Your Hand, they were “doing things no one else was doing. I knew they were pointing in the direction that music had to go.” He concluded, “It seemed to me a definite line was being drawn. This was something that never happened before.” I won't debate this any more, life's just too short, but I really suggest you deeply listen to Dowland, and then add the American blues to that, and then the harmonic and stylistic innovations of the Beatles, and consider specifically Bach had to add that had a larger effect on popular music. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85C1jX0P28k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85C1jX0P28k