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I didn’t think we would end up in a timeline where courts are trying to protect the replication of a deadly virus that has killed millions. Look at the results.

I didn’t think we would end up in a timeline where courts are trying to protect the replication of a deadly virus that has killed millions. Look at the results. Mandate->lives saved; no mandate->more death. I thought you all claimed to be pro life?

dang 5y ago
Ideological flamewar hell is exactly what we don't need on this site, and you dived straight into it with this comment. That's not cool and is against both the rules and the spirit of this site. Can you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and not do this anymore?
xil3 5y ago
Pro-life not pro-tyranny! Forcing people to take a vaccine that was rolled out almost immediately, without due process is not protecting anything. I'm not saying it doesn't work, but it's not a silver bullet, and only time will tell if it's safe.
- _ddzr 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - fyhgdet 5y ago
    Can’t find it now because google seems to have down ranked it. There have been cases of medication having very long term side effects which were not caught during trials. I’m thinking specifically of something that caused birth defects. I don’t think it is wise to claim so much authority as you have when it is literally impossible to have FULL confidence. Are you going to take responsibility for the 1 in 1 million who reads your comments and goes on to suffer an adverse reaction?
    - _ddzr 5y ago
      [flagged]
      - citizenpaul 5y ago
        Please direct me to the 5 -10 year study on long term effects of the vaccine all knowing armchair general sir.
        westcort 5y ago
        You are exposed to millions of antigens daily, and almost none are FDA approved. This isn’t at all like a new chemical entity, it is a short-lived antigen that trains your immune system, then goes away. This isn’t 1960, it’s 2021. It’s safe, certainly safer than COVID, and necessary to protect you, your family, your neighbors, and our society.
        citizenpaul 5y ago
        So a deflection it is.
      - native_samples 5y ago
        This position assumes that all harmful side effects are detected, recorded and correctly ascribed to the vaccine. What we see in reality is that "medical professionals" like yourself are loathe to accept that reports of problems could be linked to the vaccine, even if they occur very soon after vaccination. Instead they are routinely ignored or ascribed as coincidences. For instance, the system is still totally ignoring the apparently widespread appearance of menstrual problems in women who have been vaccinated despite it being one of the top reports in VAERS. Female friends of my girlfriend are reporting this problem at a very high rate, yet as far as people like you are concerned it doesn't happen at all. It seems very much like virtually none of the reactions that would intuitively be caused by the vaccine are actually being recorded as such. In that environment your confidence would be severely misplaced.
- jimkleiber 5y ago
  I'm just not sure how the mandate forces people to take a vaccine. Doesn't it say that people don't have to take it but then have to get tested weekly...if they want to stay at a company of over 100 employees? Doesn't that give people lots of options if they want to refuse taking a vaccine? 1) get tested weekly and 2) move to a smaller company are at least two alternatives to a vaccine, no?
  - _ddzr 5y ago
    [flagged]
    - jimkleiber 5y ago
      I think there's a strong argument to be made for cruel and unusual punishment (or maybe not that but the unfairness of the consequences), as things ratchet up. For me, it seems fair to say people should get tested every week. If it were tested every 5 minutes or had to wear a full hazmat suit, then yes, I think that takes it wayyyy too far and then would be much more upset about it. I guess I just don't see how the current alternatives prohibit people from participating in society. I guess some places say only vaccinated people, but most seem to just require a negative test within the last 72 hours or something.
    - bandyaboot 5y ago
      So the mandate that employers of over 100 people must require them to be vaccinated or tested weekly is bad because eventually those people will have to stop participating in society?
- mpyne 5y ago
  > Pro-life not pro-tyranny! Forcing people to take a vaccine that was rolled out almost immediately, without due process is not protecting anything. It had 'due process', the same process any other vaccine would receive (including previous vaccines), culminating in an FDA authorization for use. All based on decades of research and 18 months of "shots in arms" data to back it up, when we know after a great deal of experience that vaccine side effects would show up in weeks, not years. That doesn't make the Pfizer vaccine a "silver bullet" but it has not sideswiped due process and there's no additional data to be gained from waiting longer. So we're at the situation where if the courts decide this vaccine mandate is contrary to the public health, no vaccine mandate could be enforced either.
- w4zm0ng3r 5y ago
  [dead]
- westcort 5y ago
  Got news for you. You don’t get to drink and drive, you don’t get to yell fire in a theater, and you don’t get to run red lights. Nothing new here but a bunch of cowards afraid of needles and doing anything not mandated by Fox News.
- westcort 5y ago
  You are exposed to millions of antigens daily, and almost none are FDA approved. This isn’t at all like a new chemical entity, it is a short-lived antigen that trains your immune system, then goes away. This isn’t 1960, it’s 2021. It’s safe, certainly safer than COVID, and necessary to protect you, your family, your neighbors, and our society.
tag2103 5y ago
Stop with the pearl clutching- the mandate is illegal in our Federal system. Full stop.
- _ddzr 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - dantheman 5y ago
    Yep and it's done at the state level.
    - jimkleiber 5y ago
      I haven't read the court documents...is the argument that states can make these sorts of mandates but the federal government can't? I thought some states were claiming these mandates were illegal at all levels but I can't recall.
      - nkurz 5y ago
        The decision seems very well written and is worth at least a skim. The section that answers your question is (f), and starts at the bottom of page 16. As I read it, the decision says that the State's definitely have the police power to mandate vaccination, and suggests that the federal government lacks this authority under the Commerce Clause (but doesn't directly claim that no other authority exists). The basic claim is that OSHA, given it's current legal authority, lacks the right to regulate "noneconomic nonactivity".
        jimkleiber 5y ago
        I very much appreciate you writing it out like that. I will read it over. Again, thank you
        westcort 5y ago
        Yeah! Bring back polio because this dusty document has a tiny asterisk here that says I can. Give me a break. No original thought here…just regurgitation of whatever is on Fox News.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
w4zm0ng3r 5y ago
[dead]
gruez 5y ago
>Mandate->lives saved; no mandate->more death. I thought you all claimed to be pro life? mandate -> no choice. I thought you all claimed to be pro-choice? See? It's almost as if someone's political beliefs has more nuance than a two word slogan.
- westcort 5y ago
  Get tested weekly then. They built in a way out. Are you that afraid of needles?
swayvil 5y ago
Personal autonomy is sacred in our country. Personal beliefs, less so. It's an important feature of our system.
- westcort 5y ago
  Nah. It’s life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in that order. Your liberty isn’t a license to drink and drive, yell fire in a theater, or refuse vaccines.
native_samples 5y ago
The issue is, a whole lot of people disagree that mandate = lives saved. The reason mandates are bad is that when lots of people are disagreeing with a law, there are usually rational reasons why. In this case the increasingly fanatical "vaccinate everything over and over" brigade refuse to accept that disagreement can have any kind of rational basis, and thus don't even listen to the people who don't want to take it. But that is exactly why this type of mandate is really bad news. As for "what about the other vaccine mandates" - yep, time to revisit them too. Apparently public health agencies aren't at their most trustworthy when talking about this topic. Their treatment of COVID vaccine data has been shockingly poor. It's not a big leap to wondering whether they've been acting like this in the past too and people just didn't notice.

dang 5y ago

Ideological flamewar hell is exactly what we don't need on this site, and you dived straight into it with this comment. That's not cool and is against both the rules and the spirit of this site. Can you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and not do this anymore?

xil3 5y ago

Pro-life not pro-tyranny! Forcing people to take a vaccine that was rolled out almost immediately, without due process is not protecting anything. I'm not saying it doesn't work, but it's not a silver bullet, and only time will tell if it's safe.

_ddzr 5y ago
[flagged]
- fyhgdet 5y ago
  Can’t find it now because google seems to have down ranked it. There have been cases of medication having very long term side effects which were not caught during trials. I’m thinking specifically of something that caused birth defects. I don’t think it is wise to claim so much authority as you have when it is literally impossible to have FULL confidence. Are you going to take responsibility for the 1 in 1 million who reads your comments and goes on to suffer an adverse reaction?
  - _ddzr 5y ago
    [flagged]
    - citizenpaul 5y ago
      Please direct me to the 5 -10 year study on long term effects of the vaccine all knowing armchair general sir.
      - westcort 5y ago
        You are exposed to millions of antigens daily, and almost none are FDA approved. This isn’t at all like a new chemical entity, it is a short-lived antigen that trains your immune system, then goes away. This isn’t 1960, it’s 2021. It’s safe, certainly safer than COVID, and necessary to protect you, your family, your neighbors, and our society.
        citizenpaul 5y ago
        So a deflection it is.
    - native_samples 5y ago
      This position assumes that all harmful side effects are detected, recorded and correctly ascribed to the vaccine. What we see in reality is that "medical professionals" like yourself are loathe to accept that reports of problems could be linked to the vaccine, even if they occur very soon after vaccination. Instead they are routinely ignored or ascribed as coincidences. For instance, the system is still totally ignoring the apparently widespread appearance of menstrual problems in women who have been vaccinated despite it being one of the top reports in VAERS. Female friends of my girlfriend are reporting this problem at a very high rate, yet as far as people like you are concerned it doesn't happen at all. It seems very much like virtually none of the reactions that would intuitively be caused by the vaccine are actually being recorded as such. In that environment your confidence would be severely misplaced.
jimkleiber 5y ago
I'm just not sure how the mandate forces people to take a vaccine. Doesn't it say that people don't have to take it but then have to get tested weekly...if they want to stay at a company of over 100 employees? Doesn't that give people lots of options if they want to refuse taking a vaccine? 1) get tested weekly and 2) move to a smaller company are at least two alternatives to a vaccine, no?
- _ddzr 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - jimkleiber 5y ago
    I think there's a strong argument to be made for cruel and unusual punishment (or maybe not that but the unfairness of the consequences), as things ratchet up. For me, it seems fair to say people should get tested every week. If it were tested every 5 minutes or had to wear a full hazmat suit, then yes, I think that takes it wayyyy too far and then would be much more upset about it. I guess I just don't see how the current alternatives prohibit people from participating in society. I guess some places say only vaccinated people, but most seem to just require a negative test within the last 72 hours or something.
  - bandyaboot 5y ago
    So the mandate that employers of over 100 people must require them to be vaccinated or tested weekly is bad because eventually those people will have to stop participating in society?
mpyne 5y ago
> Pro-life not pro-tyranny! Forcing people to take a vaccine that was rolled out almost immediately, without due process is not protecting anything. It had 'due process', the same process any other vaccine would receive (including previous vaccines), culminating in an FDA authorization for use. All based on decades of research and 18 months of "shots in arms" data to back it up, when we know after a great deal of experience that vaccine side effects would show up in weeks, not years. That doesn't make the Pfizer vaccine a "silver bullet" but it has not sideswiped due process and there's no additional data to be gained from waiting longer. So we're at the situation where if the courts decide this vaccine mandate is contrary to the public health, no vaccine mandate could be enforced either.
w4zm0ng3r 5y ago
[dead]
westcort 5y ago
Got news for you. You don’t get to drink and drive, you don’t get to yell fire in a theater, and you don’t get to run red lights. Nothing new here but a bunch of cowards afraid of needles and doing anything not mandated by Fox News.
westcort 5y ago
You are exposed to millions of antigens daily, and almost none are FDA approved. This isn’t at all like a new chemical entity, it is a short-lived antigen that trains your immune system, then goes away. This isn’t 1960, it’s 2021. It’s safe, certainly safer than COVID, and necessary to protect you, your family, your neighbors, and our society.

tag2103 5y ago

Stop with the pearl clutching- the mandate is illegal in our Federal system. Full stop.

_ddzr 5y ago
[flagged]
- dantheman 5y ago
  Yep and it's done at the state level.
  - jimkleiber 5y ago
    I haven't read the court documents...is the argument that states can make these sorts of mandates but the federal government can't? I thought some states were claiming these mandates were illegal at all levels but I can't recall.
    - nkurz 5y ago
      The decision seems very well written and is worth at least a skim. The section that answers your question is (f), and starts at the bottom of page 16. As I read it, the decision says that the State's definitely have the police power to mandate vaccination, and suggests that the federal government lacks this authority under the Commerce Clause (but doesn't directly claim that no other authority exists). The basic claim is that OSHA, given it's current legal authority, lacks the right to regulate "noneconomic nonactivity".
      - jimkleiber 5y ago
        I very much appreciate you writing it out like that. I will read it over. Again, thank you
      - westcort 5y ago
        Yeah! Bring back polio because this dusty document has a tiny asterisk here that says I can. Give me a break. No original thought here…just regurgitation of whatever is on Fox News.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

w4zm0ng3r 5y ago

[dead]

gruez 5y ago

>Mandate->lives saved; no mandate->more death. I thought you all claimed to be pro life? mandate -> no choice. I thought you all claimed to be pro-choice? See? It's almost as if someone's political beliefs has more nuance than a two word slogan.

westcort 5y ago
Get tested weekly then. They built in a way out. Are you that afraid of needles?

swayvil 5y ago

Personal autonomy is sacred in our country. Personal beliefs, less so. It's an important feature of our system.

westcort 5y ago
Nah. It’s life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in that order. Your liberty isn’t a license to drink and drive, yell fire in a theater, or refuse vaccines.

native_samples 5y ago

The issue is, a whole lot of people disagree that mandate = lives saved. The reason mandates are bad is that when lots of people are disagreeing with a law, there are usually rational reasons why. In this case the increasingly fanatical "vaccinate everything over and over" brigade refuse to accept that disagreement can have any kind of rational basis, and thus don't even listen to the people who don't want to take it. But that is exactly why this type of mandate is really bad news. As for "what about the other vaccine mandates" - yep, time to revisit them too. Apparently public health agencies aren't at their most trustworthy when talking about this topic. Their treatment of COVID vaccine data has been shockingly poor. It's not a big leap to wondering whether they've been acting like this in the past too and people just didn't notice.