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> The ones with a nearly impeccable safety record The current vaccines have an impeccable safety record. > that we had many years of long term experience with

> The ones with a nearly impeccable safety record The current vaccines have an impeccable safety record. > that we had many years of long term experience with We had many years surviving just fine with long term exposure to lead, cigarettes and asbestos. Time duration is not relevant, also because we have not had many years of long term experience with Covid itself - which is why the relative risk is what is important. You have an incredibly lower long-term risk when compared with catching Covid, and society has a multiplicatively lower risk when compared with unvaccinated people being allowed to so easily spread the disease. > the ones that actually provided sterilizing immunity The current vaccines provide significantly better immunity than the flu shot. This isn't a black and white exercise.

miles 5y ago
> The current vaccines have an impeccable safety record. "Impeccable" does not appear to be accurate: Orange County woman's death after 2nd dose of Moderna vaccine spurs concern from family https://abc7.com/moderna-vaccine-covid-side-effects-orange-county-coroner-death-investigation/10562182/ https://abc7.com/moderna-vaccine-covid-side-effects-orange-c... CDC says 28 blood clot cases, 3 deaths may be linked to J&J Covid vaccine https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/12/cdc-says-28-blood-clot-cases-3-deaths-may-be-linked-to-jj-covid-vaccine.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/12/cdc-says-28-blood-clot-cases... Belgium halts J&J COVID vaccine for under 41s after first EU death https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/belgium-says-halts-jj-covid-jab-under-41s-after-one-dies-2021-05-26/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/... COVID-19: Vaccine recipient died of heart attack, CECC says https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2021/06/13/2003759098 https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2021/06/13/... Woman who died a day after Covid-19 jab had heart attack, wasn't allergic to vaccine: MOH https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/woman-who-died-a-day-after-covid-19-jab-had-heart-attack-wasnt-allergic-to-vaccine-moh https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/woman-who-died-a-day-... 'I blame myself for vaccinating wife' https://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-newdelhi/i-blame-myself-for-vaccinating-wife/article35009711.ece https://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-newdelh... 13-Year-Old Dies in Sleep After Receiving Pfizer COVID Vaccine; CDC Investigating https://www.newsweek.com/13-year-old-dies-sleep-after-receiving-pfizer-covid-vaccine-cdc-investigating-1606529 https://www.newsweek.com/13-year-old-dies-sleep-after-receiv... Two die in Japan after shots from suspended Moderna vaccines - Japan govt https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/two-die-japan-after-shots-suspended-moderna-vaccines-japan-govt-2021-08-28/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/... Young people's deaths after Pfizer vaccines are new worry https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2021/08/24/national/socialAffairs/covid19-vaccine-deaths/20210824191200483.html https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2021/08/24/national/soc... New Zealand reports first death linked to Pfizer/BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/new-zealand-reports-death-woman-after-pfizer-covid-vaccine-2021-08-30/ https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/new-zealand-repor... Healthy mother-of-two, 35, dies after AstraZeneca vaccine caused blood clots on her brain as relatives say she had jab to 'protect her family' https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9986391/Mother-dies-AstraZeneca-vaccine-caused-blood-clots-brain.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9986391/Mother-dies... Vaccinated in secret from his parents: new details about the boy who died after the Pfizer injection https://incident-obozrevatel-com.translate.goog/crime/rodnyie-ne-znali-chto-vladimir-reshil-sdelat-privivku-ot-covid-19-pod-kievom-cherez-neskolko-chasov-posle-ukola-skonchalsya-student.htm?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US https://incident-obozrevatel-com.translate.goog/crime/rodnyi... Slovenia suspends Johnson vaccine over death of 20-year-old https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/29/slovenia-suspends-johnson-vaccine-over-death-of-20-year-old https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/29/slovenia-suspends-j... Washington woman died from rare blood clotting syndrome after receiving Johnson & Johnson Covid-19 vaccine, local health agency says https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/05/health/washington-blood-clot-vaccine-death/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/05/health/washington-blood-clot-... Twitter Labeled Woman's Obituary as 'Misleading' After Death From Rare Vaccine Complication https://www.newsweek.com/twitter-labeled-womans-obituary-misleading-after-death-rare-vaccine-complication-1635402 https://www.newsweek.com/twitter-labeled-womans-obituary-mis... Myocarditis-induced Sudden Death after BNT162b2 mRNA COVID-19 Vaccination in Korea: Case Report Focusing on Histopathological Findings https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34664804/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34664804/ Michigan woman’s death caused by rare Johnson & Johnson COVID vaccine side effect, autopsy report says https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2021/10/saline-womans-death-caused-by-rare-johnson-johnson-covid-vaccine-side-effect-autopsy-report-says.html https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2021/10/saline-womans-... Army conscript dies after jab https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2205891/army-conscript-dies-after-jab https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2205891/army-co... Probe underway into teenager's death after vaccination http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20211030000071 http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20211030000071 Covid: Blood clot victim's family praised for vaccine support https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-59224594 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-59224594
- HanShotFirst 5y ago
  Regardless of the merits of any particular one of those articles - this is scare mongering as it completely ignores that around 5 million people have died from COVID worldwide, while around 3 billion people have received the vaccine safely.
  - kyleee 5y ago
    The person you have responded to simply refuted the claim that the vaccines have an "impeccable" record.
    - Cogito 5y ago
      The original claim was a qualified 'impeccable' - "the current ones with an impeccable record" - that is the original response was that the current covid vaccines are as safe as the other safe vaccines we have. The follow up was saying "the covid vaccine doesn't have a perfect safety record therefore it's not really impeccable is it!" while not comparing to other safe vaccines at all. You can't use a broad definition in the original claim and then try and use a narrow definition when refuting counter claims.
      - incrudible 5y ago
        > The original claim was a qualified 'impeccable' - "the current ones with an impeccable record" - that is the original response was that the current covid vaccines are as safe as the other safe vaccines we have. They absolutely are not "as safe", not by a long shot. The Myocarditis risk is unprecedented, as is the risk for GBS, as is the risk for VITT, which is a disease that didn't even exist before. Those are just the side-effects we acknowledge. Beyond that, the sheer number of adverse event reports for the COVID vaccines dwarf the reports for all other vaccines combined. You can argue that surely most of those reports must be unrelated to vaccination, but that is true for all reports. Now, before you move the goal post, I'm not saying that these risks outweigh the benefits. That becomes highly subjective and speculative as we move into the younger age brackets. In its approval papers, the FDA itself calculated scenarios in which the risk of vaccination outweighs the benefit for males under 18, we just choose not to pay attention to that.
incrudible 5y ago
> You have an incredibly lower long-term risk when compared with catching Covid... You can't know that. COVID is a new ilness, coronavirus vaccines are novel and neither MRNA nor adenovectors have long-term safety data. You can reduce your short-term risk from COVID by getting a vaccine, so far so good. You can't know if you then go on to develop an overly specific immune response that will end up hurting you with the next mutation. Perhaps the kind of mutation that is being selected for by a non-sterilizing vaccine administered to a large population? Can we rule that one out? Of course not, it's just too inconvenient to think about. Too many people act as if this vaccine deal was a no-brainer, that the vaccine hesitant are just stupid. Never mind that the idea of vaccinating people not at risk, especially children, was almost unthinkable when it was the "Trump vaccine". What changed? Is it the science, or is it the population that demands a magic injection to end the pandemic by next Tuesday? > ...and society has a multiplicatively lower risk when compared with unvaccinated people being allowed to so easily spread the disease. This doesn't stand scrutiny, as some of the highest vaccinated places also have some of the highest rates of infection.

miles 5y ago

> The current vaccines have an impeccable safety record. "Impeccable" does not appear to be accurate: Orange County woman's death after 2nd dose of Moderna vaccine spurs concern from family https://abc7.com/moderna-vaccine-covid-side-effects-orange-county-coroner-death-investigation/10562182/ https://abc7.com/moderna-vaccine-covid-side-effects-orange-c... CDC says 28 blood clot cases, 3 deaths may be linked to J&J Covid vaccine https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/12/cdc-says-28-blood-clot-cases-3-deaths-may-be-linked-to-jj-covid-vaccine.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/12/cdc-says-28-blood-clot-cases... Belgium halts J&J COVID vaccine for under 41s after first EU death https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/belgium-says-halts-jj-covid-jab-under-41s-after-one-dies-2021-05-26/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/... COVID-19: Vaccine recipient died of heart attack, CECC says https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2021/06/13/2003759098 https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2021/06/13/... Woman who died a day after Covid-19 jab had heart attack, wasn't allergic to vaccine: MOH https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/woman-who-died-a-day-after-covid-19-jab-had-heart-attack-wasnt-allergic-to-vaccine-moh https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/woman-who-died-a-day-... 'I blame myself for vaccinating wife' https://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-newdelhi/i-blame-myself-for-vaccinating-wife/article35009711.ece https://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-newdelh... 13-Year-Old Dies in Sleep After Receiving Pfizer COVID Vaccine; CDC Investigating https://www.newsweek.com/13-year-old-dies-sleep-after-receiving-pfizer-covid-vaccine-cdc-investigating-1606529 https://www.newsweek.com/13-year-old-dies-sleep-after-receiv... Two die in Japan after shots from suspended Moderna vaccines - Japan govt https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/two-die-japan-after-shots-suspended-moderna-vaccines-japan-govt-2021-08-28/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/... Young people's deaths after Pfizer vaccines are new worry https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2021/08/24/national/socialAffairs/covid19-vaccine-deaths/20210824191200483.html https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2021/08/24/national/soc... New Zealand reports first death linked to Pfizer/BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/new-zealand-reports-death-woman-after-pfizer-covid-vaccine-2021-08-30/ https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/new-zealand-repor... Healthy mother-of-two, 35, dies after AstraZeneca vaccine caused blood clots on her brain as relatives say she had jab to 'protect her family' https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9986391/Mother-dies-AstraZeneca-vaccine-caused-blood-clots-brain.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9986391/Mother-dies... Vaccinated in secret from his parents: new details about the boy who died after the Pfizer injection https://incident-obozrevatel-com.translate.goog/crime/rodnyie-ne-znali-chto-vladimir-reshil-sdelat-privivku-ot-covid-19-pod-kievom-cherez-neskolko-chasov-posle-ukola-skonchalsya-student.htm?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US https://incident-obozrevatel-com.translate.goog/crime/rodnyi... Slovenia suspends Johnson vaccine over death of 20-year-old https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/29/slovenia-suspends-johnson-vaccine-over-death-of-20-year-old https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/29/slovenia-suspends-j... Washington woman died from rare blood clotting syndrome after receiving Johnson & Johnson Covid-19 vaccine, local health agency says https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/05/health/washington-blood-clot-vaccine-death/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/05/health/washington-blood-clot-... Twitter Labeled Woman's Obituary as 'Misleading' After Death From Rare Vaccine Complication https://www.newsweek.com/twitter-labeled-womans-obituary-misleading-after-death-rare-vaccine-complication-1635402 https://www.newsweek.com/twitter-labeled-womans-obituary-mis... Myocarditis-induced Sudden Death after BNT162b2 mRNA COVID-19 Vaccination in Korea: Case Report Focusing on Histopathological Findings https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34664804/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34664804/ Michigan woman’s death caused by rare Johnson & Johnson COVID vaccine side effect, autopsy report says https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2021/10/saline-womans-death-caused-by-rare-johnson-johnson-covid-vaccine-side-effect-autopsy-report-says.html https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2021/10/saline-womans-... Army conscript dies after jab https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2205891/army-conscript-dies-after-jab https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2205891/army-co... Probe underway into teenager's death after vaccination http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20211030000071 http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20211030000071 Covid: Blood clot victim's family praised for vaccine support https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-59224594 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-59224594

HanShotFirst 5y ago
Regardless of the merits of any particular one of those articles - this is scare mongering as it completely ignores that around 5 million people have died from COVID worldwide, while around 3 billion people have received the vaccine safely.
- kyleee 5y ago
  The person you have responded to simply refuted the claim that the vaccines have an "impeccable" record.
  - Cogito 5y ago
    The original claim was a qualified 'impeccable' - "the current ones with an impeccable record" - that is the original response was that the current covid vaccines are as safe as the other safe vaccines we have. The follow up was saying "the covid vaccine doesn't have a perfect safety record therefore it's not really impeccable is it!" while not comparing to other safe vaccines at all. You can't use a broad definition in the original claim and then try and use a narrow definition when refuting counter claims.
    - incrudible 5y ago
      > The original claim was a qualified 'impeccable' - "the current ones with an impeccable record" - that is the original response was that the current covid vaccines are as safe as the other safe vaccines we have. They absolutely are not "as safe", not by a long shot. The Myocarditis risk is unprecedented, as is the risk for GBS, as is the risk for VITT, which is a disease that didn't even exist before. Those are just the side-effects we acknowledge. Beyond that, the sheer number of adverse event reports for the COVID vaccines dwarf the reports for all other vaccines combined. You can argue that surely most of those reports must be unrelated to vaccination, but that is true for all reports. Now, before you move the goal post, I'm not saying that these risks outweigh the benefits. That becomes highly subjective and speculative as we move into the younger age brackets. In its approval papers, the FDA itself calculated scenarios in which the risk of vaccination outweighs the benefit for males under 18, we just choose not to pay attention to that.

incrudible 5y ago

> You have an incredibly lower long-term risk when compared with catching Covid... You can't know that. COVID is a new ilness, coronavirus vaccines are novel and neither MRNA nor adenovectors have long-term safety data. You can reduce your short-term risk from COVID by getting a vaccine, so far so good. You can't know if you then go on to develop an overly specific immune response that will end up hurting you with the next mutation. Perhaps the kind of mutation that is being selected for by a non-sterilizing vaccine administered to a large population? Can we rule that one out? Of course not, it's just too inconvenient to think about. Too many people act as if this vaccine deal was a no-brainer, that the vaccine hesitant are just stupid. Never mind that the idea of vaccinating people not at risk, especially children, was almost unthinkable when it was the "Trump vaccine". What changed? Is it the science, or is it the population that demands a magic injection to end the pandemic by next Tuesday? > ...and society has a multiplicatively lower risk when compared with unvaccinated people being allowed to so easily spread the disease. This doesn't stand scrutiny, as some of the highest vaccinated places also have some of the highest rates of infection.