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> I am however pro bodily autonomy at any cost, for whatever reason, in any condition. Do you also oppose the assorted vaccinations that are often treated as a

> I am however pro bodily autonomy at any cost, for whatever reason, in any condition. Do you also oppose the assorted vaccinations that are often treated as a mandatory condition of public school attendance?

woodruffw 5y ago
It goes even beyond that: you need proof of vaccination to attend any school in the US. In all 50 states. And it's been that way for 65 years[1]. The "pro bodily autonomy" message is smoke and mirrors, designed to put a palatable glaze on an increasingly fringe and reactionary position. [1]: https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/docs/school-vaccinations.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/docs/school-vaccinations.pdf
- RobertRoberts 5y ago
  This is not true but it seems to repeated very often. Why do authorities not want the populace to know about conscientious objections?
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    The link I provided includes conscientious objections, and makes it abundantly clear that they are extremely limited in scope. In particular, nearly every state requires (1) a statement in writing, (2) confirmation from a healthcare and/or faith practitioner, and (3) evidence that the belief is genuine and not a transient product of merely political beliefs. Additionally, many states will not accept a "genuine" belief if it is not also the belief of the complainant's faith.
    - RobertRoberts 5y ago
      This is also not entirely true. If you have kids going to school turn the vaccine statement paper over. In many states you just sign it. It is very odd how this misinformation is _vehemently_ stated as fact.
- incrudible 5y ago
  A stance becomes no less valid by being driven to the fringe by a population that is increasingly desperate to find a scapegoat for all of its problems.
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    The stance was farcical to begin with. You aren't going to get anywhere by trying to walk it out of the fringes.
    - incrudible 5y ago
      > farcical, reactionary, fringe So many adjectives, so little substance!
      - woodruffw 5y ago
        There's nothing wrong with a good adjective. The substance is elsewhere in the thread, and you're welcome to seek it out :-)
- zero102 5y ago
  > The "pro bodily autonomy" message is smoke and mirrors, designed to put a palatable glaze on an increasingly fringe and reactionary position. There is absolutely nothing fringe about wanting control of your body. This is a modern authoritarian take that is working to undo the last 50 years of increases in bodily freedom for everyone. I obviously won't win against someone espousing left-authoritarian views because neither of us will concede. But I do have some rhetorical things for you: On "smoke and mirrors" for "an increasingly fringe, reactionary position". Do you think the same about abortion? Or is it, in your mind, okay for that form of bodily autonomy but some forms of bodily autonomy are more okay than others? Do you draw the line where "it harms people"? Who are "people"? It doesn't help you linked the CDC who has a vested interest in talking down the "bodily autonomy" argument as a public policy (public health is typically diametrically opposed to bodily autonomy because public health requires shirking the individual for the "common" good). Arguing against bodily autonomy is binary. Either you are for bodily autonomy or you are for some level of government control over what people can and can't do with themselves. What I am willing to do to myself is my own business. Why should anyone but me decide?
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    Bodily autonomy is not smoke and mirrors. "Bodily autonomy" qua "I don't want to get a safe and effective vaccine" is smoke and mirrors. The rest of the post is built on top of your initial incorrect assumption, and isn't worth a line response. Consider, instead, whether there is any meaningful sense in which getting a free and effective vaccine can be reasonably compared to reproductive rights.
    - miles 5y ago
      > "Bodily autonomy" qua "I don't want to get a safe and effective vaccine" is smoke and mirrors. Effective? Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7 Vermont sees the biggest surge in COVID cases despite having the country's highest vaccination rate https://fortune.com/2021/08/12/vermont-covid-cases-vaccination-rate/ https://fortune.com/2021/08/12/vermont-covid-cases-vaccinati... Iceland has been a vaccination success. Why is it seeing a coronavirus surge? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/iceland-covid-surge-vaccines/2021/08/14/bdd88d04-fabd-11eb-911c-524bc8b68f17_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/iceland-covid-su... 99.7% of Waterford adults fully vaccinated against Covid-19 https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40704104.html https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40704104.html Waterford Now Has Highest Incidence of Covid in Ireland https://waterford-news.ie/2021/10/11/waterford-now-has-highest-incidence-of-covid-in-ireland/ https://waterford-news.ie/2021/10/11/waterford-now-has-highe... 76% of September Covid-19 deaths are vax breakthroughs https://vermontdailychronicle.com/2021/09/30/76-of-september-covid-19-deaths-are-vaxxed-breakthroughs/ https://vermontdailychronicle.com/2021/09/30/76-of-september... Safe? Orange County woman's death after 2nd dose of Moderna vaccine spurs concern from family https://abc7.com/moderna-vaccine-covid-side-effects-orange-county-coroner-death-investigation/10562182/ https://abc7.com/moderna-vaccine-covid-side-effects-orange-c... CDC says 28 blood clot cases, 3 deaths may be linked to J&J Covid vaccine https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/12/cdc-says-28-blood-clot-cases-3-deaths-may-be-linked-to-jj-covid-vaccine.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/12/cdc-says-28-blood-clot-cases... Belgium halts J&J COVID vaccine for under 41s after first EU death https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/belgium-says-halts-jj-covid-jab-under-41s-after-one-dies-2021-05-26/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/... COVID-19: Vaccine recipient died of heart attack, CECC says https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2021/06/13/2003759098 https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2021/06/13/... 'I blame myself for vaccinating wife' https://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-newdelhi/i-blame-myself-for-vaccinating-wife/article35009711.ece https://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-newdelh... Two die in Japan after shots from suspended Moderna vaccines - Japan govt https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/two-die-japan-after-shots-suspended-moderna-vaccines-japan-govt-2021-08-28/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...
- kyleee 5y ago
  Does this include home school and private schools?
- twofornone 5y ago
  > an increasingly fringe and reactionary position. If discussions on HN are any indication, opposition to lockdowns/vaccines is growing and anything but fringe. Risk tolerance is subjective, and the fact that someone's cost benefit analysis aligns against the extreme measures we are seeing does not imply heartlessness. This is not the plague. On the scale of deadly viruses, covid is quite close to a severe flu in terms of mortality/long term effects. It's high time that the moralists started listening to the rapidly growing body of opposition. Clearly this is a curve that we are not going to flatten without extreme measures, if ever given that this is now an endemic virus.
zero102 5y ago
> do you also oppose the assorted vaccines It's not nice to lump me in with anti-vaxxers but I guess that's how modern politics^W^W^W^W^W^W science is. I don't take the stance that children have complete autonomy only because it leads to some very strange and disturbing consequences. Therefore, if the parents decide the child should not be vaccinated than I think that's a fine decision. I also think deciding your child should be vaccinated is a fine decision. Where I draw the line is the prevention of attendance at a learning institution. Since you mentioned public school, then this should either have a distanced option (home schooling, etc) or permit the students regardless. Private institutions may do what they please. Yes, this also goes for public grant-receiving universities, community colleges, etc. Forcing people to manufacturer "exemptions" is simply an end-around to the government enforcing it's will upon people and their choices with their body. It's both immoral and unethical.

woodruffw 5y ago

It goes even beyond that: you need proof of vaccination to attend any school in the US. In all 50 states. And it's been that way for 65 years[1]. The "pro bodily autonomy" message is smoke and mirrors, designed to put a palatable glaze on an increasingly fringe and reactionary position. [1]: https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/docs/school-vaccinations.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/docs/school-vaccinations.pdf

RobertRoberts 5y ago
This is not true but it seems to repeated very often. Why do authorities not want the populace to know about conscientious objections?
- woodruffw 5y ago
  The link I provided includes conscientious objections, and makes it abundantly clear that they are extremely limited in scope. In particular, nearly every state requires (1) a statement in writing, (2) confirmation from a healthcare and/or faith practitioner, and (3) evidence that the belief is genuine and not a transient product of merely political beliefs. Additionally, many states will not accept a "genuine" belief if it is not also the belief of the complainant's faith.
  - RobertRoberts 5y ago
    This is also not entirely true. If you have kids going to school turn the vaccine statement paper over. In many states you just sign it. It is very odd how this misinformation is _vehemently_ stated as fact.
incrudible 5y ago
A stance becomes no less valid by being driven to the fringe by a population that is increasingly desperate to find a scapegoat for all of its problems.
- woodruffw 5y ago
  The stance was farcical to begin with. You aren't going to get anywhere by trying to walk it out of the fringes.
  - incrudible 5y ago
    > farcical, reactionary, fringe So many adjectives, so little substance!
    - woodruffw 5y ago
      There's nothing wrong with a good adjective. The substance is elsewhere in the thread, and you're welcome to seek it out :-)
zero102 5y ago
> The "pro bodily autonomy" message is smoke and mirrors, designed to put a palatable glaze on an increasingly fringe and reactionary position. There is absolutely nothing fringe about wanting control of your body. This is a modern authoritarian take that is working to undo the last 50 years of increases in bodily freedom for everyone. I obviously won't win against someone espousing left-authoritarian views because neither of us will concede. But I do have some rhetorical things for you: On "smoke and mirrors" for "an increasingly fringe, reactionary position". Do you think the same about abortion? Or is it, in your mind, okay for that form of bodily autonomy but some forms of bodily autonomy are more okay than others? Do you draw the line where "it harms people"? Who are "people"? It doesn't help you linked the CDC who has a vested interest in talking down the "bodily autonomy" argument as a public policy (public health is typically diametrically opposed to bodily autonomy because public health requires shirking the individual for the "common" good). Arguing against bodily autonomy is binary. Either you are for bodily autonomy or you are for some level of government control over what people can and can't do with themselves. What I am willing to do to myself is my own business. Why should anyone but me decide?
- woodruffw 5y ago
  Bodily autonomy is not smoke and mirrors. "Bodily autonomy" qua "I don't want to get a safe and effective vaccine" is smoke and mirrors. The rest of the post is built on top of your initial incorrect assumption, and isn't worth a line response. Consider, instead, whether there is any meaningful sense in which getting a free and effective vaccine can be reasonably compared to reproductive rights.
  - miles 5y ago
    > "Bodily autonomy" qua "I don't want to get a safe and effective vaccine" is smoke and mirrors. Effective? Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7 Vermont sees the biggest surge in COVID cases despite having the country's highest vaccination rate https://fortune.com/2021/08/12/vermont-covid-cases-vaccination-rate/ https://fortune.com/2021/08/12/vermont-covid-cases-vaccinati... Iceland has been a vaccination success. Why is it seeing a coronavirus surge? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/iceland-covid-surge-vaccines/2021/08/14/bdd88d04-fabd-11eb-911c-524bc8b68f17_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/iceland-covid-su... 99.7% of Waterford adults fully vaccinated against Covid-19 https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40704104.html https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40704104.html Waterford Now Has Highest Incidence of Covid in Ireland https://waterford-news.ie/2021/10/11/waterford-now-has-highest-incidence-of-covid-in-ireland/ https://waterford-news.ie/2021/10/11/waterford-now-has-highe... 76% of September Covid-19 deaths are vax breakthroughs https://vermontdailychronicle.com/2021/09/30/76-of-september-covid-19-deaths-are-vaxxed-breakthroughs/ https://vermontdailychronicle.com/2021/09/30/76-of-september... Safe? Orange County woman's death after 2nd dose of Moderna vaccine spurs concern from family https://abc7.com/moderna-vaccine-covid-side-effects-orange-county-coroner-death-investigation/10562182/ https://abc7.com/moderna-vaccine-covid-side-effects-orange-c... CDC says 28 blood clot cases, 3 deaths may be linked to J&J Covid vaccine https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/12/cdc-says-28-blood-clot-cases-3-deaths-may-be-linked-to-jj-covid-vaccine.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/12/cdc-says-28-blood-clot-cases... Belgium halts J&J COVID vaccine for under 41s after first EU death https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/belgium-says-halts-jj-covid-jab-under-41s-after-one-dies-2021-05-26/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/... COVID-19: Vaccine recipient died of heart attack, CECC says https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2021/06/13/2003759098 https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2021/06/13/... 'I blame myself for vaccinating wife' https://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-newdelhi/i-blame-myself-for-vaccinating-wife/article35009711.ece https://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-newdelh... Two die in Japan after shots from suspended Moderna vaccines - Japan govt https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/two-die-japan-after-shots-suspended-moderna-vaccines-japan-govt-2021-08-28/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...
kyleee 5y ago
Does this include home school and private schools?
twofornone 5y ago
> an increasingly fringe and reactionary position. If discussions on HN are any indication, opposition to lockdowns/vaccines is growing and anything but fringe. Risk tolerance is subjective, and the fact that someone's cost benefit analysis aligns against the extreme measures we are seeing does not imply heartlessness. This is not the plague. On the scale of deadly viruses, covid is quite close to a severe flu in terms of mortality/long term effects. It's high time that the moralists started listening to the rapidly growing body of opposition. Clearly this is a curve that we are not going to flatten without extreme measures, if ever given that this is now an endemic virus.

zero102 5y ago

> do you also oppose the assorted vaccines It's not nice to lump me in with anti-vaxxers but I guess that's how modern politics^W^W^W^W^W^W science is. I don't take the stance that children have complete autonomy only because it leads to some very strange and disturbing consequences. Therefore, if the parents decide the child should not be vaccinated than I think that's a fine decision. I also think deciding your child should be vaccinated is a fine decision. Where I draw the line is the prevention of attendance at a learning institution. Since you mentioned public school, then this should either have a distanced option (home schooling, etc) or permit the students regardless. Private institutions may do what they please. Yes, this also goes for public grant-receiving universities, community colleges, etc. Forcing people to manufacturer "exemptions" is simply an end-around to the government enforcing it's will upon people and their choices with their body. It's both immoral and unethical.