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Netherlands judge rules Samsung Galaxy S, S II violate Apple patents, bans sales

171 points by bond 15y ago

Jun8 15y ago
I think this will be a minority report but: Although I hate Apple's heavy-handed approach to this, I also like the message that this sends to Asian companies, who have quite a cavalier approach when it comes to "borrowing & adapting" the designs and innovations from others. The list is long and is by no means limited to Apple: Routers from Cisco, phone designs from Motorola, etc. etc. It may be impossible to properly enforce copyright and trademarks in China and other neighbors but at least this shows that Europe may be a different battle ground.
- guywithabike 15y ago
  I'd love to hear from people who are downvoting you. Why are they downvoting you?
  - Jun8 15y ago
    I've been on HN for some time and haven't formed a good theory about downvoting behavior here. I think in this particular case people are so anti-{apple, software patents} that they automatically resist looking at it from another angle. Same usually happens when you mention FB in a positive light on HN. EDIT: As I've said in my comment, this doesn't mean that I think Apple's ruthless approach to patents and its draconian methods of platform control are good things. It's just that the other guys do have a copy and paste problem. Maybe not in this case, but generally definitely they do.
  - cageface 15y ago
    I almost never downvote, and didn't in this case, but I don't think this is sending the right message. Android is not a copy and adds more than enough of its own twists and innovations to justify its existence. If anything losing on trivial patents like this this is going to send the message to Asian companies that the Western markets are stacked against them no matter what they do.
    - Jun8 15y ago
      "the message to Asian companies that the Western markets are stacked against them no matter what they do" Given how successful they are, that's very unlikely. However, the converse is actually true, China is quite hostile to Western business, you can read up on this on the many articles published, e.g. on the Economist. If you want to be treated fairly, you have to treat others so, too, isn't this the golden rule?
      - vetinari 15y ago
        Economist is not exactly an etalon of unbiased reporting. They have very Anglo-Saxon centred optics. It does not change the fact, that yes, China is very hostile to Western businesses.
        mechnik 15y ago
        How do etalons and optics apply here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etalon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etalon
        vetinari 15y ago
        Etalon also means standard, benchmark data, other instances are compared to this one. Originally from French.
      - cageface 15y ago
        Admittedly there's some asymmetry there. A better way to say this is that it would be easy for Asian companies to conclude that there's no incentive for them to develop original IP because they're just going to get crushed in the IP courts in the West anyway.
  - jeffool 15y ago
    This is about Samsung using Google's software and getting sued for it. How is that "teaching the East a lesson"? That's framing it as some cultural pudding match that makes no sense to most HN readers (or else he'd have a positive ranking.) Add in the fact that most people here think software patents have serious problems, at the least... And it's pretty easy to see why it was down-voted to me.
    - Jun8 15y ago
      I didn't use the term "teaching the East a lesson" nor was it implied. I just said that Asian companies have long made it a habit of copying successful designs and ideas. I don't think anyone can argue with this proposition. Now, this not an "evil" thing to do. I am up for abolishing the current atrocious use of software copyrights as the next person: let all the copy cats come out with the stuff and let the market decide in a fair battle. However, to do this, the market conditions must be made level, which it definitely is not, especially in China (I don't know the situation in Taiwan or South Korea). This certainly is no "cultural pudding match" and if you are in the tech sector it is very relevant. As for downvoting: People's comments are their opinions, you may disagree or they may be wrong. What do you do when you get stuck with a boring person in a meetup, you just ignore them and move to the next person to talk. I do the same for comments here (or in any other forum) and do not downvote, unless they are offensive or badly formulated.
      - jeffool 15y ago
        Maybe you didn't mean to imply it, but that's what I got from "sending them a message." And as to if they've been successful about copying Western design choices... This is Apple suing over a Google design choice. Samsung may be the manufacturer, but it's my understand that they didn't implement feature Apple's suing over. It just resides in their tablet, and Apple doesn't want to sue Google. Yet. I think that's also why people were down-voting. (I don't have the ability yet.) Because your initial post comes off as blaming Samsung for copying a software feature, when it's Google's code. Samsung just distributed hardware that uses it.
- nkassis 15y ago
  This to me feels different than fake cisco gear. In the case of the fake cisco gear they are built to look and pass for cicso gear even running stolen copies of cisco catalyst and IOS software. Samsung isn't claiming their phone is an iPhone. You can tell they are different and the OS looks different. Customers are not getting fooled into buying Samsung phone thinking it's a real iPhone.
  - Jun8 15y ago
    I was referring to not selling fake Cisco gear but the theft of Cisco router code and using it on Huawei's routers. According to some estimates 40% of the code on those routers were Cisco's. This was a famous case and everybody knew about it but Cisco couldn't do anything!
    - nkassis 15y ago
      I still think that kind of thing is very different than what is going on here. That's theft, and it's not patent infringement but copyright infringement. If apple had claim that their code or that the chips in samsung's phones were taken from Apple I'd think it's warranted to go after them but suing for someone using the same swipe move as you?
      - Jun8 15y ago
        You are right, it is tangentially relevant to this particular case. Yet the fact remains that there is a certain mindset in some Asian companies. I am not saying that was the case here.
    - ZeroGravitas 15y ago
      "They hanged the man and flogged the woman, Who stole the goose from off the common. But they let the greater villain loose, Who stole the common from under the goose." Or to relate it to this case, how is claiming that only you can make rectangles or any of these patent hold-ups not "theft" that everyone knows about but can't do anything about?
- wmf 15y ago
  BTW, in this case it looks like Google (you know, from California) is doing the copying. Samsung is just shipping it.
  - Jun8 15y ago
    In this very particular case you're right, as far as I understand the situation the infringing Gallery app is a standard Android app. However, why did Apple focus on Samsung? Yes they are #2, but could it also be how the original looked imitated an iPhone, e.g. http://www.edibleapple.com/did-samsung-make-last-minute-design-changes-to-the-galaxy-s-ii-to-make-it-look-less-like-the-iphone/ http://www.edibleapple.com/did-samsung-make-last-minute-desi...? Compare these looks with a aMotorola Droid 3.
davedx 15y ago
Original FOSS article: http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/08/dutch-court-orders-eu-wide-preliminary.html http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/08/dutch-court-orders-e...
- Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
  That article makes the interesting point (which I'll repeat here for those who can't be bothered to read it) that Samsung logistics use the Netherlands as a hub for Europe. While the ban doesn't stretch across Europe, they would have to change that to get devices into other European countries.
  - bond 15y ago
    I think that if they don't generate the sales from that hub and only from the subsidiaries on each country then they can still use it...
    - Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
      No, they aren't allowed to import them into the Netherlands at all for any reason so long as the ban is in place.
jwn 15y ago
Can anyone speculate on the likelyhood of Apple getting such a ban enacted in the US? If it looks impending I want to order one before it happens.
danieldk 15y ago
Given that the ban starts only on October 13 and Android 3.0 does not violate the relevant patents (according to Dutch news sites). Couldn't Samsung just update the firmware in the meanwhile to change the behavior of touch-based photo browsing to whatever Android 3.0 uses? Edit: according to the judgment summary the Galaxy Tab does not violate said patents.
- pieter 15y ago
  Yes, this is exactly what they're going to do. They've already said they'll update the firmware before the deadline to remove the scrolling behavior, so their phones won't get taken out of the stores. [1] Dutch: http://tweakers.net/nieuws/76361/samsung-blijft-galaxy-s-ii-in-nederland-verkopen.html http://tweakers.net/nieuws/76361/samsung-blijft-galaxy-s-ii-... [2] Translation: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftweakers.net%2Fnieuws%2F76361%2Fsamsung-blijft-galaxy-s-ii-in-nederland-verkopen.html http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&h...
  - CWIZO 15y ago
    As ridiculous as this is, I hope that this at least means we'll get the 3.0 update sooner to our SGSII phones ...
    - buster 15y ago
      I don't think any phone will get 3.0 because this is the "tablet version".. 4.0 (or what icecream sandwich will be) will be the united 2.3 and 3.x branches. You'll have to wait a little longer, although Icecream Sandwich will be released soon
    - veeti 15y ago
      Android 3.0 is only for tablets.
- MicahNance 15y ago
  Based on how long they took to upgrade the Galaxy S (Captivate) to 2.2, no. That may have been mostly due to AT&T's involvement, though.
epaga 15y ago
Seems like the violations are software-only (slide to unlock for example), so an Android update by October 13 should solve their problem...or am I missing something?
- bonzoesc 15y ago
  Do you think Samsung could get an update out in under two months?
  - Kylekramer 15y ago
    In most circumstances, no. When the motivation is update or have your products removed from stores, I'd think you'd be surprised how quick Samsung can be.
    - wccrawford 15y ago
      In addition, they don't have to update EVERYTHING, just those few things... The next update could be an emergency release addressing just those things, and then a later update could bring everything they've been working on. That's how I'd do it, unless the next update already had those fixed and it was very, very close anyhow.
    - Splines 15y ago
      It's likely they have been working on a fix "just in case" even before the ruling was delivered.
  - epaga 15y ago
    actually, yes! see pieter's remark up top and this (translated) article where their lawyer says they'll do just that: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftweakers.net%2Fnieuws%2F76361%2Fsamsung-blijft-galaxy-s-ii-in-nederland-verkopen.html http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&h...
  - syjer 15y ago
    If it's only the gallery that need an update, they could push it through the market I think.
pkandathil 15y ago
There were the violations by Samsung of the Apple patent: EP 2,058,868 - method of scrolling / browsing gallery; EP 2098948 - recording a "flag" in connection with multiple screen taps, of which Samsung would use the system by using Android 2.3 or later version; EP 1,964,022 - method of "unlocking" of a portable device through the touch screen an "unlock image" in a way to drag. Patenting phone unlock and how to browse through pictures is a douche move.
- wgx 15y ago
  >Patenting phone unlock and how to browse through pictures is a douche move. But they did invent the "Swipe to Unlock" interaction did they not? Previous to that it was always a clunky button combination (Menu + * on the old Nokia handsets) and this is an elegant alternative. Why can't other manufacturers come up with a new, novel unlock method like Apple did?
  - kayoone 15y ago
    Yeah Apple invented it, i give them that. But do they need to patent it and sue manufactures of other smartphones that use the same technique ? Sadly, Apple became the new MS years ago..
    - wgx 15y ago
      Downvoted! Harsh. I know I'm swimming against the tide here, and actually I think there are huge problems with the patent system globally. BUT - I find it a little strange that company A invents something, protects it, then company B does the exact same thing - knowing there's a patent.. should we be surprised that Apple are using that which the law allows them?
      - zmmmmm 15y ago
        > should we be surprised that Apple are using that which the law allows them Yes. Your argument seems to be that we should expect companies to behave exactly as badly as the law can possibly let them do so and that they should receive no reproach for doing that. If you use this argument then you are implying that the law should enforce good behavior in every single thing every company does, since there is no other force to make them do good things (remember, you just argued that nobody should complain about what Apple does because it is legal). Clearly the above is ridiculous and the whole premise of "free" societies is that people and companies are granted wide freedom to do things and the law only regulates the most severe of these and that people will motivate good behavior by each other and companies by shaming them and judging them and refusing to deal with them when they behave poorly. So yes - when Apple behaves badly they need to feel judgement from the community and this is how it happens. The company does something bad (suing over a frivolous feature to block an entire competitor's product), and we express surprise and shock that it did such a bad thing.
kayoone 15y ago
This is so ridiculous. I cant decide between a S2 and a Iphone 5 anyway but this makes me lean heavily towards the Samsung device. Patenting the way to unlock a phone via dragging an image ? God, i need to puke.
- chaostheory 15y ago
  Yeah I'm part of the Apple cult, but if Apple keeps this legal circus up, as much as I'd hate to, I'm probably going to leave it.
  - re_todd 15y ago
    I've never bought Apple, but I've recommended them to non-tech friends and family that sought my advice. From now on, no more recommendations from me.
    - rimantas 15y ago
      When next time you are going to recommend some Galaxy Tab for them rember this: http://thenextweb.com/apple/2011/06/29/samsung-complaint-calls-for-import-ban-on-apples-iphone-ipad-and-ipod/ http://thenextweb.com/apple/2011/06/29/samsung-complaint-cal... Apple did not invent the patent system, nor did they bought that court decision.
- wladimir 15y ago
  This is indeed ridiculous. I've always been pretty neutral towards Apple but I this is just appalling. Seemingly they cannot compete with Android in the normal way so they try the patent troll angle. I hope this backfires on them big time. I don't want to live in Apple's locked-down walled garden.
  - mhd 15y ago
    Hardly surprising[1]. And I don't think this will make a big splash against them. The public doesn't care and Apple fanboys will be Apple fanboys. I expect some apologetics any moment on Daring Fireball any moment now… NB: I'm typing this on a Mac. I really like the OS and the desktop/laptop systems, but since they've become the big mobile player, there's not a lot of progress in those fields and they're getting increasingly litigious. Time to install Arch on some spare machine again… [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Microsoft_Corporation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Microso...
SnowLprd 15y ago
From an ethical perspective, I find Samsung's inability to innovate and subsequent willingness to carbon-copy the iPhone and iPad to be reprehensible and wrong. It's sad that Samsung seemingly can't come up with much original on their own. From the perspective of fostering general innovation in the marketplace and increasing the greater good, software and design patents need to go bye-bye. Apple's just playing the game according to the current rules, and the current rules really need to change.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- hessenwolf 15y ago
  I find my Samsung Galaxy S really different to the iphones I have tried, and to have a similarity to the samsung netbook I have kicking around at home. These patent infringements seem absurdly minor to me.
- nodata 15y ago
  My G2 has a back button, a home button and an options button below the screen which takes up most of the device. An iPhone doesn't. The battery is user replaceable. I can plug in an sd card. On an iPhone I can't. On the G2 I can switch between recent applications by holding the home button. I can access the contents of my phone by using a web browser. I can sync without iTunes. Doesn't sound like a carbon copy to me.
  - evilduck 15y ago
    Samsung didn't invent any of that.
    - evilduck 15y ago
      I'm sorry, why the downvote? This is about Samsung creating a product that's not a copy of Apple right? The Home, Back and Menu actions are required by Google and who suggests manufacturers make them hardware inputs. They're not "differentiating their product from Apple", they're complying with the specified requirements to run the OS they chose. They could have innovated by making them gestures or a touchpad or something, but they didn't. Switching applications with home buttons and other OS behaviors are not Samsung's ideas, they're part of the stock Android OS. For Samsung's actual contributions to the product, compare their first Android device, the I7500, to their Galaxy II line. Which direction did the design travel? I7500: http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2009/04/i7500_samsung.jpg http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2009/04/i7500_... iPhone: http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/06/iphone-4-top-new-1.jpg http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/06/iphone... Galaxy II: http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2011/04/11z428207gsii.jpg http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2011/04/11z428...
deleted 15y ago
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- spot 15y ago
  1) Copying is good. Being different for its own sake is confusing and wasteful. 2) Back and forth? Show me where Google has done this.
- scarmig 15y ago
  There's also convergent evolution. Why should there be a patent for, say, swiping a phone to unlock it, or having a context-dependent touch keyboard? Even if they are actually innovative (which I'd argue aren't, but whatevs), if you've got a good design team, even if other teams copy you after you release, you still have half a year on them where your design team is pounding away on the next greatest thing. If If I got a patent on using color screens on mobile communication devices back in the 90s, should I be able to sue Samsung and Apple off the market unless they go to monochrome or pay me a bajillion dollars? Also, Google and Apple have been doing this back and forth? Really? Cite, please.
goombastic 15y ago
Companies should make phones completely without an OS and allow people to load them up with the OS of their choice. Something like Cyanogenmod on a blank phone would be awesome.
- hessenwolf 15y ago
  I'd pay extra not to have to bother spending 8 weeks compiling gentoo.
  - sukuriant 15y ago
    Why the downvote. He has a point. Preinstalled operating systems are incredibly convenient, something the average user doesn't want to have to do.
krelian 15y ago
If there is any chance that this will lead to some people in power realizing the ridiculousness of it all then it was all worth it.
Astrohacker 15y ago
Patent laws should be ignored. Run your company pseudonymously, and violate patents all you want. No one will be able to stop you.
kenyan_komu 15y ago
Guess what I just invented a new way of opening my kitchen door, just press it with your butt. Now I'm going sue the remaining of you 5, 999, 999, 999 humans. Seriously though they say that the thing with th gallery is the default in android 2.3. So it is more like they are suing google? Its it time google sued someone for violating the mobile phone patent they acquired from motorola? they can do it in a small country like Nicaragua, u know, just to send a msg of intent
yaix 15y ago
What's with the headline? Samsung does not violate Apple patents, it just violates one patent. And sales are not banned, they are just to be banned (in more than a month's time), if Samsung does not make changes. But it made me click through, which is probably what all those inaccuracies had been introduced for.
- biot 15y ago
  Headlines are written for brevity and to get you to read the article. However, you'll note the corrections made to the article indicate the original version said that Samsung violated other Apple patents and that the ban was immediate. Only once the Dutch was properly translated did the corrections render the headline a bit off.
- jonknee 15y ago
  ... Because it was multiple patents. And because a ban was indeed made (with a fairly standard delay enabling them to change the product).
iamdave 15y ago
So does anyone know if Samsung's decision to bring Cyanogenmod aboard was prompted by the events leading up to this? Any links/reading/conjecture on the matter?
IsaacL 15y ago
International law is something I'm trying to improve my knowledge of. Can someone explain why it is that a judge in the Netherlands can block the sales of the Samsung Galaxy throughout Europe?
- mechnik 15y ago
  The Netherlands is the Dutch uncle of Europe so naturally they are taken seriously throughout the continent. Kidding aside, I believe since the NL is part of the European Union the judicial rulings passed there apply to the other countries-members of the E.U..
- ConstantineXVI 15y ago
  I'm not clear on if there's any direct effect on the rest of the EU from this ruling, however the Netherlands happens to be Samsung's primary hub in the EU. So even if the ban has no legal weight in other countries, Samsung would need to re-route their supply chain through another country to continue bringing their phones into the rest of the EU.
- ugh 15y ago
  Because “European Union” is not just a name. (At its core the EU is all about creating a common market. Harmonized patent law and enforcement is obviously a big part of that.)
- speleding 15y ago
  All the stuff shipped into Europe by Samsung (and by many other companies) goes through the Netherlands. If you ban import into the Netherlands you would need to route around it. Setting up an entire operation in another country is hard enough to make it unprofitable to do for a few models. The Netherlands has Europe's largest port (Rotterdam) owing to its lucky geographic position at the end of the Rhine and Meuse, two of the largest rivers. Since transportation by boat is several times cheaper than rail or truck this has caused most logistics companies to set up shop there.
reddit_clone 15y ago
Didn't apple do a blatant rip off of Android notification center concept? I didn't see any outrage from Apple fanboys then.
- cheald 15y ago
  Well, you see, Apple never steals ideas, they just invent them out of chronological order sometimes. </snark>

171 points by bond 15y ago

Jun8 15y ago

I think this will be a minority report but: Although I hate Apple's heavy-handed approach to this, I also like the message that this sends to Asian companies, who have quite a cavalier approach when it comes to "borrowing & adapting" the designs and innovations from others. The list is long and is by no means limited to Apple: Routers from Cisco, phone designs from Motorola, etc. etc. It may be impossible to properly enforce copyright and trademarks in China and other neighbors but at least this shows that Europe may be a different battle ground.

guywithabike 15y ago
I'd love to hear from people who are downvoting you. Why are they downvoting you?
- Jun8 15y ago
  I've been on HN for some time and haven't formed a good theory about downvoting behavior here. I think in this particular case people are so anti-{apple, software patents} that they automatically resist looking at it from another angle. Same usually happens when you mention FB in a positive light on HN. EDIT: As I've said in my comment, this doesn't mean that I think Apple's ruthless approach to patents and its draconian methods of platform control are good things. It's just that the other guys do have a copy and paste problem. Maybe not in this case, but generally definitely they do.
- cageface 15y ago
  I almost never downvote, and didn't in this case, but I don't think this is sending the right message. Android is not a copy and adds more than enough of its own twists and innovations to justify its existence. If anything losing on trivial patents like this this is going to send the message to Asian companies that the Western markets are stacked against them no matter what they do.
  - Jun8 15y ago
    "the message to Asian companies that the Western markets are stacked against them no matter what they do" Given how successful they are, that's very unlikely. However, the converse is actually true, China is quite hostile to Western business, you can read up on this on the many articles published, e.g. on the Economist. If you want to be treated fairly, you have to treat others so, too, isn't this the golden rule?
    - vetinari 15y ago
      Economist is not exactly an etalon of unbiased reporting. They have very Anglo-Saxon centred optics. It does not change the fact, that yes, China is very hostile to Western businesses.
      - mechnik 15y ago
        How do etalons and optics apply here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etalon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etalon
        vetinari 15y ago
        Etalon also means standard, benchmark data, other instances are compared to this one. Originally from French.
    - cageface 15y ago
      Admittedly there's some asymmetry there. A better way to say this is that it would be easy for Asian companies to conclude that there's no incentive for them to develop original IP because they're just going to get crushed in the IP courts in the West anyway.
- jeffool 15y ago
  This is about Samsung using Google's software and getting sued for it. How is that "teaching the East a lesson"? That's framing it as some cultural pudding match that makes no sense to most HN readers (or else he'd have a positive ranking.) Add in the fact that most people here think software patents have serious problems, at the least... And it's pretty easy to see why it was down-voted to me.
  - Jun8 15y ago
    I didn't use the term "teaching the East a lesson" nor was it implied. I just said that Asian companies have long made it a habit of copying successful designs and ideas. I don't think anyone can argue with this proposition. Now, this not an "evil" thing to do. I am up for abolishing the current atrocious use of software copyrights as the next person: let all the copy cats come out with the stuff and let the market decide in a fair battle. However, to do this, the market conditions must be made level, which it definitely is not, especially in China (I don't know the situation in Taiwan or South Korea). This certainly is no "cultural pudding match" and if you are in the tech sector it is very relevant. As for downvoting: People's comments are their opinions, you may disagree or they may be wrong. What do you do when you get stuck with a boring person in a meetup, you just ignore them and move to the next person to talk. I do the same for comments here (or in any other forum) and do not downvote, unless they are offensive or badly formulated.
    - jeffool 15y ago
      Maybe you didn't mean to imply it, but that's what I got from "sending them a message." And as to if they've been successful about copying Western design choices... This is Apple suing over a Google design choice. Samsung may be the manufacturer, but it's my understand that they didn't implement feature Apple's suing over. It just resides in their tablet, and Apple doesn't want to sue Google. Yet. I think that's also why people were down-voting. (I don't have the ability yet.) Because your initial post comes off as blaming Samsung for copying a software feature, when it's Google's code. Samsung just distributed hardware that uses it.
nkassis 15y ago
This to me feels different than fake cisco gear. In the case of the fake cisco gear they are built to look and pass for cicso gear even running stolen copies of cisco catalyst and IOS software. Samsung isn't claiming their phone is an iPhone. You can tell they are different and the OS looks different. Customers are not getting fooled into buying Samsung phone thinking it's a real iPhone.
- Jun8 15y ago
  I was referring to not selling fake Cisco gear but the theft of Cisco router code and using it on Huawei's routers. According to some estimates 40% of the code on those routers were Cisco's. This was a famous case and everybody knew about it but Cisco couldn't do anything!
  - nkassis 15y ago
    I still think that kind of thing is very different than what is going on here. That's theft, and it's not patent infringement but copyright infringement. If apple had claim that their code or that the chips in samsung's phones were taken from Apple I'd think it's warranted to go after them but suing for someone using the same swipe move as you?
    - Jun8 15y ago
      You are right, it is tangentially relevant to this particular case. Yet the fact remains that there is a certain mindset in some Asian companies. I am not saying that was the case here.
  - ZeroGravitas 15y ago
    "They hanged the man and flogged the woman, Who stole the goose from off the common. But they let the greater villain loose, Who stole the common from under the goose." Or to relate it to this case, how is claiming that only you can make rectangles or any of these patent hold-ups not "theft" that everyone knows about but can't do anything about?
wmf 15y ago
BTW, in this case it looks like Google (you know, from California) is doing the copying. Samsung is just shipping it.
- Jun8 15y ago
  In this very particular case you're right, as far as I understand the situation the infringing Gallery app is a standard Android app. However, why did Apple focus on Samsung? Yes they are #2, but could it also be how the original looked imitated an iPhone, e.g. http://www.edibleapple.com/did-samsung-make-last-minute-design-changes-to-the-galaxy-s-ii-to-make-it-look-less-like-the-iphone/ http://www.edibleapple.com/did-samsung-make-last-minute-desi...? Compare these looks with a aMotorola Droid 3.

davedx 15y ago

Original FOSS article: http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/08/dutch-court-orders-eu-wide-preliminary.html http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/08/dutch-court-orders-e...

Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
That article makes the interesting point (which I'll repeat here for those who can't be bothered to read it) that Samsung logistics use the Netherlands as a hub for Europe. While the ban doesn't stretch across Europe, they would have to change that to get devices into other European countries.
- bond 15y ago
  I think that if they don't generate the sales from that hub and only from the subsidiaries on each country then they can still use it...
  - Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
    No, they aren't allowed to import them into the Netherlands at all for any reason so long as the ban is in place.

jwn 15y ago

Can anyone speculate on the likelyhood of Apple getting such a ban enacted in the US? If it looks impending I want to order one before it happens.

danieldk 15y ago

Given that the ban starts only on October 13 and Android 3.0 does not violate the relevant patents (according to Dutch news sites). Couldn't Samsung just update the firmware in the meanwhile to change the behavior of touch-based photo browsing to whatever Android 3.0 uses? Edit: according to the judgment summary the Galaxy Tab does not violate said patents.

pieter 15y ago
Yes, this is exactly what they're going to do. They've already said they'll update the firmware before the deadline to remove the scrolling behavior, so their phones won't get taken out of the stores. [1] Dutch: http://tweakers.net/nieuws/76361/samsung-blijft-galaxy-s-ii-in-nederland-verkopen.html http://tweakers.net/nieuws/76361/samsung-blijft-galaxy-s-ii-... [2] Translation: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftweakers.net%2Fnieuws%2F76361%2Fsamsung-blijft-galaxy-s-ii-in-nederland-verkopen.html http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&h...
- CWIZO 15y ago
  As ridiculous as this is, I hope that this at least means we'll get the 3.0 update sooner to our SGSII phones ...
  - buster 15y ago
    I don't think any phone will get 3.0 because this is the "tablet version".. 4.0 (or what icecream sandwich will be) will be the united 2.3 and 3.x branches. You'll have to wait a little longer, although Icecream Sandwich will be released soon
  - veeti 15y ago
    Android 3.0 is only for tablets.
MicahNance 15y ago
Based on how long they took to upgrade the Galaxy S (Captivate) to 2.2, no. That may have been mostly due to AT&T's involvement, though.

epaga 15y ago

Seems like the violations are software-only (slide to unlock for example), so an Android update by October 13 should solve their problem...or am I missing something?

bonzoesc 15y ago
Do you think Samsung could get an update out in under two months?
- Kylekramer 15y ago
  In most circumstances, no. When the motivation is update or have your products removed from stores, I'd think you'd be surprised how quick Samsung can be.
  - wccrawford 15y ago
    In addition, they don't have to update EVERYTHING, just those few things... The next update could be an emergency release addressing just those things, and then a later update could bring everything they've been working on. That's how I'd do it, unless the next update already had those fixed and it was very, very close anyhow.
  - Splines 15y ago
    It's likely they have been working on a fix "just in case" even before the ruling was delivered.
- epaga 15y ago
  actually, yes! see pieter's remark up top and this (translated) article where their lawyer says they'll do just that: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftweakers.net%2Fnieuws%2F76361%2Fsamsung-blijft-galaxy-s-ii-in-nederland-verkopen.html http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&h...
- syjer 15y ago
  If it's only the gallery that need an update, they could push it through the market I think.

pkandathil 15y ago

There were the violations by Samsung of the Apple patent: EP 2,058,868 - method of scrolling / browsing gallery; EP 2098948 - recording a "flag" in connection with multiple screen taps, of which Samsung would use the system by using Android 2.3 or later version; EP 1,964,022 - method of "unlocking" of a portable device through the touch screen an "unlock image" in a way to drag. Patenting phone unlock and how to browse through pictures is a douche move.

wgx 15y ago
>Patenting phone unlock and how to browse through pictures is a douche move. But they did invent the "Swipe to Unlock" interaction did they not? Previous to that it was always a clunky button combination (Menu + * on the old Nokia handsets) and this is an elegant alternative. Why can't other manufacturers come up with a new, novel unlock method like Apple did?
- kayoone 15y ago
  Yeah Apple invented it, i give them that. But do they need to patent it and sue manufactures of other smartphones that use the same technique ? Sadly, Apple became the new MS years ago..
  - wgx 15y ago
    Downvoted! Harsh. I know I'm swimming against the tide here, and actually I think there are huge problems with the patent system globally. BUT - I find it a little strange that company A invents something, protects it, then company B does the exact same thing - knowing there's a patent.. should we be surprised that Apple are using that which the law allows them?
    - zmmmmm 15y ago
      > should we be surprised that Apple are using that which the law allows them Yes. Your argument seems to be that we should expect companies to behave exactly as badly as the law can possibly let them do so and that they should receive no reproach for doing that. If you use this argument then you are implying that the law should enforce good behavior in every single thing every company does, since there is no other force to make them do good things (remember, you just argued that nobody should complain about what Apple does because it is legal). Clearly the above is ridiculous and the whole premise of "free" societies is that people and companies are granted wide freedom to do things and the law only regulates the most severe of these and that people will motivate good behavior by each other and companies by shaming them and judging them and refusing to deal with them when they behave poorly. So yes - when Apple behaves badly they need to feel judgement from the community and this is how it happens. The company does something bad (suing over a frivolous feature to block an entire competitor's product), and we express surprise and shock that it did such a bad thing.

kayoone 15y ago

This is so ridiculous. I cant decide between a S2 and a Iphone 5 anyway but this makes me lean heavily towards the Samsung device. Patenting the way to unlock a phone via dragging an image ? God, i need to puke.

chaostheory 15y ago
Yeah I'm part of the Apple cult, but if Apple keeps this legal circus up, as much as I'd hate to, I'm probably going to leave it.
- re_todd 15y ago
  I've never bought Apple, but I've recommended them to non-tech friends and family that sought my advice. From now on, no more recommendations from me.
  - rimantas 15y ago
    When next time you are going to recommend some Galaxy Tab for them rember this: http://thenextweb.com/apple/2011/06/29/samsung-complaint-calls-for-import-ban-on-apples-iphone-ipad-and-ipod/ http://thenextweb.com/apple/2011/06/29/samsung-complaint-cal... Apple did not invent the patent system, nor did they bought that court decision.
wladimir 15y ago
This is indeed ridiculous. I've always been pretty neutral towards Apple but I this is just appalling. Seemingly they cannot compete with Android in the normal way so they try the patent troll angle. I hope this backfires on them big time. I don't want to live in Apple's locked-down walled garden.
- mhd 15y ago
  Hardly surprising[1]. And I don't think this will make a big splash against them. The public doesn't care and Apple fanboys will be Apple fanboys. I expect some apologetics any moment on Daring Fireball any moment now… NB: I'm typing this on a Mac. I really like the OS and the desktop/laptop systems, but since they've become the big mobile player, there's not a lot of progress in those fields and they're getting increasingly litigious. Time to install Arch on some spare machine again… [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Microsoft_Corporation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Microso...

SnowLprd 15y ago

From an ethical perspective, I find Samsung's inability to innovate and subsequent willingness to carbon-copy the iPhone and iPad to be reprehensible and wrong. It's sad that Samsung seemingly can't come up with much original on their own. From the perspective of fostering general innovation in the marketplace and increasing the greater good, software and design patents need to go bye-bye. Apple's just playing the game according to the current rules, and the current rules really need to change.

deleted 15y ago
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hessenwolf 15y ago
I find my Samsung Galaxy S really different to the iphones I have tried, and to have a similarity to the samsung netbook I have kicking around at home. These patent infringements seem absurdly minor to me.
nodata 15y ago
My G2 has a back button, a home button and an options button below the screen which takes up most of the device. An iPhone doesn't. The battery is user replaceable. I can plug in an sd card. On an iPhone I can't. On the G2 I can switch between recent applications by holding the home button. I can access the contents of my phone by using a web browser. I can sync without iTunes. Doesn't sound like a carbon copy to me.
- evilduck 15y ago
  Samsung didn't invent any of that.
  - evilduck 15y ago
    I'm sorry, why the downvote? This is about Samsung creating a product that's not a copy of Apple right? The Home, Back and Menu actions are required by Google and who suggests manufacturers make them hardware inputs. They're not "differentiating their product from Apple", they're complying with the specified requirements to run the OS they chose. They could have innovated by making them gestures or a touchpad or something, but they didn't. Switching applications with home buttons and other OS behaviors are not Samsung's ideas, they're part of the stock Android OS. For Samsung's actual contributions to the product, compare their first Android device, the I7500, to their Galaxy II line. Which direction did the design travel? I7500: http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2009/04/i7500_samsung.jpg http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2009/04/i7500_... iPhone: http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/06/iphone-4-top-new-1.jpg http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/06/iphone... Galaxy II: http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2011/04/11z428207gsii.jpg http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2011/04/11z428...

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spot 15y ago
1) Copying is good. Being different for its own sake is confusing and wasteful. 2) Back and forth? Show me where Google has done this.
scarmig 15y ago
There's also convergent evolution. Why should there be a patent for, say, swiping a phone to unlock it, or having a context-dependent touch keyboard? Even if they are actually innovative (which I'd argue aren't, but whatevs), if you've got a good design team, even if other teams copy you after you release, you still have half a year on them where your design team is pounding away on the next greatest thing. If If I got a patent on using color screens on mobile communication devices back in the 90s, should I be able to sue Samsung and Apple off the market unless they go to monochrome or pay me a bajillion dollars? Also, Google and Apple have been doing this back and forth? Really? Cite, please.

goombastic 15y ago

Companies should make phones completely without an OS and allow people to load them up with the OS of their choice. Something like Cyanogenmod on a blank phone would be awesome.

hessenwolf 15y ago
I'd pay extra not to have to bother spending 8 weeks compiling gentoo.
- sukuriant 15y ago
  Why the downvote. He has a point. Preinstalled operating systems are incredibly convenient, something the average user doesn't want to have to do.

krelian 15y ago

If there is any chance that this will lead to some people in power realizing the ridiculousness of it all then it was all worth it.

Astrohacker 15y ago

Patent laws should be ignored. Run your company pseudonymously, and violate patents all you want. No one will be able to stop you.

kenyan_komu 15y ago

Guess what I just invented a new way of opening my kitchen door, just press it with your butt. Now I'm going sue the remaining of you 5, 999, 999, 999 humans. Seriously though they say that the thing with th gallery is the default in android 2.3. So it is more like they are suing google? Its it time google sued someone for violating the mobile phone patent they acquired from motorola? they can do it in a small country like Nicaragua, u know, just to send a msg of intent

yaix 15y ago

What's with the headline? Samsung does not violate Apple patents, it just violates one patent. And sales are not banned, they are just to be banned (in more than a month's time), if Samsung does not make changes. But it made me click through, which is probably what all those inaccuracies had been introduced for.

biot 15y ago
Headlines are written for brevity and to get you to read the article. However, you'll note the corrections made to the article indicate the original version said that Samsung violated other Apple patents and that the ban was immediate. Only once the Dutch was properly translated did the corrections render the headline a bit off.
jonknee 15y ago
... Because it was multiple patents. And because a ban was indeed made (with a fairly standard delay enabling them to change the product).

iamdave 15y ago

So does anyone know if Samsung's decision to bring Cyanogenmod aboard was prompted by the events leading up to this? Any links/reading/conjecture on the matter?

IsaacL 15y ago

International law is something I'm trying to improve my knowledge of. Can someone explain why it is that a judge in the Netherlands can block the sales of the Samsung Galaxy throughout Europe?

mechnik 15y ago
The Netherlands is the Dutch uncle of Europe so naturally they are taken seriously throughout the continent. Kidding aside, I believe since the NL is part of the European Union the judicial rulings passed there apply to the other countries-members of the E.U..
ConstantineXVI 15y ago
I'm not clear on if there's any direct effect on the rest of the EU from this ruling, however the Netherlands happens to be Samsung's primary hub in the EU. So even if the ban has no legal weight in other countries, Samsung would need to re-route their supply chain through another country to continue bringing their phones into the rest of the EU.
ugh 15y ago
Because “European Union” is not just a name. (At its core the EU is all about creating a common market. Harmonized patent law and enforcement is obviously a big part of that.)
speleding 15y ago
All the stuff shipped into Europe by Samsung (and by many other companies) goes through the Netherlands. If you ban import into the Netherlands you would need to route around it. Setting up an entire operation in another country is hard enough to make it unprofitable to do for a few models. The Netherlands has Europe's largest port (Rotterdam) owing to its lucky geographic position at the end of the Rhine and Meuse, two of the largest rivers. Since transportation by boat is several times cheaper than rail or truck this has caused most logistics companies to set up shop there.

reddit_clone 15y ago

Didn't apple do a blatant rip off of Android notification center concept? I didn't see any outrage from Apple fanboys then.

cheald 15y ago
Well, you see, Apple never steals ideas, they just invent them out of chronological order sometimes. </snark>