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This is my biggest problem with crypto. It is all about how in the future all these problems will be solved. I've been hearing about how it is the future 'of mi

This is my biggest problem with crypto. It is all about how in the future all these problems will be solved. I've been hearing about how it is the future 'of micro payments', or 'the future gold', or 'the future of legal contracts'. You are saying the energy usage problem will be solved by 'moving towards a layer2', in the future. https://www.businessinsider.com/marc-andreessen-tells-us-why-bitcoin-matters-2014-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/marc-andreessen-tells-us-why...

hunterb123 5y ago
That's not what he said. Lightning network is now and has been. Proof of stake is now. ETH2 has $5+ billion staked on it. Many ETH competitors are out there that are pure PoS. It's an outplayed talking point that gets more irrelevant with each passing day. To the topic of Zulip, I find it funny they aren't on the crypto bandwagon but they are on the talking point bandwagon of crypto must be for criminals, anti-environmentalists, or scammers. Those are the only 3 points. Whew, you'd think it was 2010.
vineyardmike 5y ago
> It is all about how in the future all these problems will be solved. Is this not all of technology in entirety?
- gitfan86 5y ago
  No. When google launched it was really good. It solved slow web searches immediately. Did it get better over time? Yes. But it didn't launch and claim that "in the future google will return results for billions of searches within milliseconds", and then keep claiming that for years
menzoic 5y ago
As already stated the vast majority of crypto today is on proof of stake which has no energy concerns. And of course you'll always hear about the future when it comes to ground breaking tech. I'm sure you also always hear about the future of AI
- Animats 5y ago
  vast majority of crypto today is on proof of stake which has no energy concerns Huh? * Bitcoin - still proof of work. * Etherium - still proof of work, switching to proof of stake on January 1, 2020. Or maybe December 1, 2020. Or maybe some time in 2022.
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    ETH is transitioning. Multiple billions are staked on ETH2 already. It's not a hard switch all at once, don't suggest that. I believe GP is correct that the majority market cap of crypto is more on PoS vs PoW, but I don't have a source readily available. You only listed two coins, one you were wrong on as it's both PoS and PoW currently. Remember that most ETH competitors have billions in market cap and are pure PoS. Algorand, Cardano, Solana, Avalanche, Polkadot, etc.
    - Animats 5y ago
      Etherium is still mostly proof of work. Proof of stake is still Real Soon Now. Cryptocurrencies by market cap.[1] There's Bitcoin, Etherium, and then there's everybody else. Binance and Tether are centrally issued. Solana, #5, is the largest proof of stake coin. [1] https://coinmarketcap.com/ https://coinmarketcap.com/
Zamicol 5y ago
Ethereum is solving the layer 1 energy problem with PoS, and solving scaling with sharding, L2's, and new types of zero knowledge proofs. As someone watching the space since the beginning, imho, Ethereum has it in the bag.
- jimkleiber 5y ago
  I'm really curious, because I'm often much more cautious and qualified in how I speak, why do you seem to be 100% certain that Ethereum is solving and has it in the bag? Do you have zero doubt? Do you have a lot of doubt and speak so certainly to mask your own self-doubt? Do you have a lot of money riding on it being successful therefore afraid Ethereum won't solve the problem? Maybe none of those things or a combo? I really really struggle to know why people speak about such things with near certainty and maybe you won't answer but I hope you do and help me see what may contribute to you expressing such certainty.
  - Zamicol 5y ago
    I feel that I'm usually pretty cautious with my "bets". I would not have bet Microsoft would be implementing Linux in any capacity in 2021, even though I would consider myself a Linux fanboy since ~2002. I have zero doubt. It's like debating if the sky is neon pink or blue. They're way ahead of everyone else. Take just fees. https://cryptofees.info/history/2021-11-11 https://cryptofees.info/history/2021-11-11. Ethereum is doing 77x Bitcoin, and that's excluding three other Ethereum projects ahead of Bitcoin. I can express doubt about the success of something doing 2x of a market leader. I can't justify tempering my certainty when it's slaughtering its market peers.
    - jimkleiber 5y ago
      I think if I were to say I had no doubts and were 100% certainty about anything it would be that it is impossible to be 100% certain (even I qualified that with "I think if I were to say"). I can agree that they might be ahead in their development of new ways to address energy challenges or gas challenges or other challenges compared to other platforms, yet still struggle to imagine you have no doubt. Maybe I just consider too many variables that could come into play, such as government regulation, chilling effects, global wars, deaths of leaders, etc., that could throw off the inevitability of something achieving something in the future. To be fair, those and other variables could make it even more likely that Ethereum or cryptocurrencies in general will solve those problems, I just don't see it as 100% yes or 100% no. Maybe I'm just built different. That being said, I didn't know that Ethereum had such a discrepancy in terms of fee transactions compared to BTC, so I'm grateful you pointed that out and I could learn more about that aspect—thank you.
jimkleiber 5y ago
Same for me. I'm intrigued by the tech and the geopolitical and cultural change that may result from such tech. I can feel really frustrated with the certainty with which people seem to declare that this tech has already solved future problems when it sure doesn't seem as if it has. At the same time, I see this overhyping hyperbolic forecasting in more and more things these days, especially when people are trying to convince other people to invest money, time, and/or other resources in their endeavor. I roll my eyes if I don't outright feel angry and disgusted, because the faux certainty often spreads to many people. I try to imagine why they may express 100% certainty of future events, and often struggle to do so.

hunterb123 5y ago

That's not what he said. Lightning network is now and has been. Proof of stake is now. ETH2 has $5+ billion staked on it. Many ETH competitors are out there that are pure PoS. It's an outplayed talking point that gets more irrelevant with each passing day. To the topic of Zulip, I find it funny they aren't on the crypto bandwagon but they are on the talking point bandwagon of crypto must be for criminals, anti-environmentalists, or scammers. Those are the only 3 points. Whew, you'd think it was 2010.

vineyardmike 5y ago

> It is all about how in the future all these problems will be solved. Is this not all of technology in entirety?

gitfan86 5y ago
No. When google launched it was really good. It solved slow web searches immediately. Did it get better over time? Yes. But it didn't launch and claim that "in the future google will return results for billions of searches within milliseconds", and then keep claiming that for years

menzoic 5y ago

As already stated the vast majority of crypto today is on proof of stake which has no energy concerns. And of course you'll always hear about the future when it comes to ground breaking tech. I'm sure you also always hear about the future of AI

Animats 5y ago
vast majority of crypto today is on proof of stake which has no energy concerns Huh? * Bitcoin - still proof of work. * Etherium - still proof of work, switching to proof of stake on January 1, 2020. Or maybe December 1, 2020. Or maybe some time in 2022.
- hunterb123 5y ago
  ETH is transitioning. Multiple billions are staked on ETH2 already. It's not a hard switch all at once, don't suggest that. I believe GP is correct that the majority market cap of crypto is more on PoS vs PoW, but I don't have a source readily available. You only listed two coins, one you were wrong on as it's both PoS and PoW currently. Remember that most ETH competitors have billions in market cap and are pure PoS. Algorand, Cardano, Solana, Avalanche, Polkadot, etc.
  - Animats 5y ago
    Etherium is still mostly proof of work. Proof of stake is still Real Soon Now. Cryptocurrencies by market cap.[1] There's Bitcoin, Etherium, and then there's everybody else. Binance and Tether are centrally issued. Solana, #5, is the largest proof of stake coin. [1] https://coinmarketcap.com/ https://coinmarketcap.com/

Zamicol 5y ago

Ethereum is solving the layer 1 energy problem with PoS, and solving scaling with sharding, L2's, and new types of zero knowledge proofs. As someone watching the space since the beginning, imho, Ethereum has it in the bag.

jimkleiber 5y ago
I'm really curious, because I'm often much more cautious and qualified in how I speak, why do you seem to be 100% certain that Ethereum is solving and has it in the bag? Do you have zero doubt? Do you have a lot of doubt and speak so certainly to mask your own self-doubt? Do you have a lot of money riding on it being successful therefore afraid Ethereum won't solve the problem? Maybe none of those things or a combo? I really really struggle to know why people speak about such things with near certainty and maybe you won't answer but I hope you do and help me see what may contribute to you expressing such certainty.
- Zamicol 5y ago
  I feel that I'm usually pretty cautious with my "bets". I would not have bet Microsoft would be implementing Linux in any capacity in 2021, even though I would consider myself a Linux fanboy since ~2002. I have zero doubt. It's like debating if the sky is neon pink or blue. They're way ahead of everyone else. Take just fees. https://cryptofees.info/history/2021-11-11 https://cryptofees.info/history/2021-11-11. Ethereum is doing 77x Bitcoin, and that's excluding three other Ethereum projects ahead of Bitcoin. I can express doubt about the success of something doing 2x of a market leader. I can't justify tempering my certainty when it's slaughtering its market peers.
  - jimkleiber 5y ago
    I think if I were to say I had no doubts and were 100% certainty about anything it would be that it is impossible to be 100% certain (even I qualified that with "I think if I were to say"). I can agree that they might be ahead in their development of new ways to address energy challenges or gas challenges or other challenges compared to other platforms, yet still struggle to imagine you have no doubt. Maybe I just consider too many variables that could come into play, such as government regulation, chilling effects, global wars, deaths of leaders, etc., that could throw off the inevitability of something achieving something in the future. To be fair, those and other variables could make it even more likely that Ethereum or cryptocurrencies in general will solve those problems, I just don't see it as 100% yes or 100% no. Maybe I'm just built different. That being said, I didn't know that Ethereum had such a discrepancy in terms of fee transactions compared to BTC, so I'm grateful you pointed that out and I could learn more about that aspect—thank you.

jimkleiber 5y ago

Same for me. I'm intrigued by the tech and the geopolitical and cultural change that may result from such tech. I can feel really frustrated with the certainty with which people seem to declare that this tech has already solved future problems when it sure doesn't seem as if it has. At the same time, I see this overhyping hyperbolic forecasting in more and more things these days, especially when people are trying to convince other people to invest money, time, and/or other resources in their endeavor. I roll my eyes if I don't outright feel angry and disgusted, because the faux certainty often spreads to many people. I try to imagine why they may express 100% certainty of future events, and often struggle to do so.