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I for one am glad to see a company push back on blockchain technologies and their horrendous environmental impact. As an environmentalist in the computing space

I for one am glad to see a company push back on blockchain technologies and their horrendous environmental impact. As an environmentalist in the computing space, it makes me so depressed to see our industry regress so much in environmental impact.

encryptluks2 5y ago
This is an assumption that all blockchains are a PoW, which isn't accurate.
- basilgohar 5y ago
  With all due respect, that is similar to someone saying we need to get off of fossil fuels for the benefit of the environment, and complaining that that assumes all fossil fuels contribute equally to climate change. Technically right but distracting from the point that the most significant blockchain usage is PoW or some other methodology that massively wastes resources of some kind, such as Chia that wastes storage space for no good purpose.
  - culi 5y ago
    Not to mention that storage space is also an environmental impact. I think when thinking about environmental impact we're often too focused on emissions during usage and not looking at the environmental impact of manufacturing and recycling the objects themselves. Solar panels, for example, look a lot less eco-friendly when you realize their lifespans are about 20 years and our recycling solution is to... not recycle them. Not to mention precious metals like lithium are getting harder and harder to mine, meaning more and more emissions are required to acquire those materials in the first place. It's estimated that around 46% of an EV battery's carbon footprint is in the factory itself before it's even travelled a single mile. Which is part of why total lifetime GHG emissions for EVs are still around 65% that of gasoline powered cars.[0] and only 5% of lithium-ion batteries are recycled in the US (compared to 99% of lead-iron batteries). Sorry I'm rambling. I think my point was that we need to think more about where the materials come from and what happens to them afterwards if we want a more complete picture of the environmental impacts of a technology [0] https://theicct.org/publications/global-LCA-passenger-cars-jul2021 https://theicct.org/publications/global-LCA-passenger-cars-j...
- ajkjk 5y ago
  Nobody who is complaining about this is making that assumption. PoW continues to exist, and they know that as well as you do, and it's really bad.
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    Bitcoin sadly isn't going anywhere. And if it does it will take the whole thing with it for years. If PoS was winning why doesn't it control most of market cap?
    - Zamicol 5y ago
      PoS is winning on almost every metric. https://money-movers.info/ https://money-movers.info/ https://cryptofees.info/ https://cryptofees.info/
  - encryptluks2 5y ago
    So they why don't they consider a PoS option like Solana? That is like me complaining about an entire race because one or two people did something negative to me that were of a specific race. It is stereotyping which wouldn't be appropriate in other scenarios.
- floatboth 5y ago
  It does not matter that some don't. Most do, especially the biggest one, so the shitcoin economy as a whole does.
colesantiago 5y ago
Cryptocurrencies isn't the only space to have a poor environmental footprint, Machine Learning as well has a horrible record and contributes to harming the environment.
- hmrr 5y ago
  Also rebuilding the same docker containers 500 times a day… We could do a whole lot better with our energy usage across the whole industry.
- LurkingPenguin 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - Guest42 5y ago
    Personally, I get tired of the apples to oranges comparisons whereby bitcoins and blockchain have the same feature set as currency and banks. Also get tired of the aspirational rants of how it is going to fix supply chains and offer banking to the underserved communities. And yes, I understand banking, supply chains, and crypto enough to know that that will never happen.
    - beckman466 5y ago
      > Also get tired of the aspirational rants of how it is going to fix supply chains and offer banking to the underserved communities. And yes, I understand banking, supply chains, and crypto enough to know that that will never happen. agreed. have you heard of hREA [1] and http://valueflo.ws http://valueflo.ws, led by Bob and Lynn from http://mikorizal.org http://mikorizal.org, and others? it's sort of an open source SAP alternative designed as local-first networked software. "Radically distributed supply chain systems". it uses the REA accounting method [2] to implement LETS and mutual credit type economic networks for cooperatives / small business ecosystems / commons based peer production / any transitional/solidarity economies. Bonfire is also implementing the Valueflows vocabulary on ActivityPub [3]. [1] https://github.com/holo-rea/holo-rea https://github.com/holo-rea/holo-rea [2] http://www.jeffsutherland.org/oopsla97/haugen.html http://www.jeffsutherland.org/oopsla97/haugen.html [3] https://bonfirenetworks.org/ https://bonfirenetworks.org/
thesausageking 5y ago
The whole Bitcoin networks uses less energy than clothes dryers in the US. And about 1/5th of what video gaming uses. If Bitcoin has a "horrendous environmental impact" than there's no excuse to play video games or use a dryer. edit: downvotes? Check the math yourself: https://www.casebitcoin.com/critiques/bitcoin-wastes-energy https://www.casebitcoin.com/critiques/bitcoin-wastes-energy https://hbr.org/2021/05/how-much-energy-does-bitcoin-actually-consume https://hbr.org/2021/05/how-much-energy-does-bitcoin-actuall...
- lukebutton 5y ago
  Too true, wondering when this absurdly off target talking point is going to be discarded
- jdub 5y ago
  Dryers and video games are useful.
- joosters 5y ago
  I've no idea if their self-declared 'back of the envelope' calculations are realistic, but it doesn't really matter. The comparison is plain dumb because unlike Bitcoin, clothes driers actually do something useful with their energy.
  - colecut 5y ago
    How can you send thousands of dollars across the globe faster with less fees?
    - dogecoinbase 5y ago
      Given blockchain transaction fees, pretty much any way up to and including just buying flights, taking cash and bribing everyone along the way.
      - colecut 5y ago
        I think you are referring to ethereum fees. Bitcoin is much better, and many others are even better. So, no, there isn't anything better than crypto for the purpose of efficiently transferring value across the globe.
skratlo 5y ago
Ever heard of surplus energy? Do you think miners would ever pay for non-surplus energy?
toolz 5y ago
There's really no excuse for this kind of strawman this late into the game. For one, Proof of work blockchains are migrating to first world countries which are moving to renewable/nuclear energy quickly, so even if proof of work was the only consensus mechanism in the blockchain space, this sentiment would be horribly outdated and uninformed. Secondly, the vast majority of the market cap is in crypto that isn't proof of work. So the first point doesn't even matter. Even bitcoin is moving towards a layer2 solution with the lightening network that means the settlement layer won't continue to put more pressure on needing more and more wasted energy.
- dnautics 5y ago
  the way I see it, complaining about the environmental impact of blockchain is a bit like complaining that a early adopter's toyota prius' car has more of an environmental impact. Sure, that's strictly speaking true, but you are helping make a point - at expense to you - building investment in infrastructure that someday result in a vehicle that IS less of an impact. In the ideal case (which I am not necessarily optimistic will happen) we have a global currency that respects that there are finite resources on the planet, and doesn't require a belligerent military that goes around littering depleted uranium around the world to back its value. (fwiw, I'm working towards getting solar on my house and mining with my excess electricity)
- jimbob45 5y ago
  >Proof of work blockchains are migrating to first world countries The whole point of blockchains is that everyone has a copy. I don't understand why you think they're migrating unless you don't want third-world countries using blockchains.
  - toolz 5y ago
    It doesn't matter what you or I want - I'm stating facts. and the fact is that technology is solving the dirty energy problem and miners are moving to cheap energy solutions because clean energy is cheaper.
    - 5y ago
Karrot_Kream 5y ago
Look can we stop this idiotic greenwashing? I get it, you don't like crypto. But stop trying to act like it's an environmental imperative to stop using crypto. When mining crypto becomes an environmental imperative, that's when we'd have both removed emissions from our automobile usage _and_ switched to hydrogen based factory processes and _then some_. We're not even close to those goals. Stop it. Hijack some other cause for your anti-crypto views. You don't get to make people feel good about emissions by writing anti crypto blog posts; you do it by actually advocating for lower emissions in activities that are in regular use that are _actually polluting_. Someone is going to say something about incremental emissions reduction and to that I say, be my guest. The world is full of people selling magical products and ideas that claim to be green. The truth is, decreasing emissions is hard. Stop distracting people from the hard work needed to actually decrease emissions. If you want to help emissions out, go advocate for more buses and fewer automobiles in your community. Advocate for hydrogen subsidies for factories. Advocate for raising the gas tax. Advocate for tax rebates on weatherproofing houses. Advocate for heat pump installation. PoW cryptocurrencies are table stakes. EDIT: The score on my post is fluctuating wildly and I'm flagged now lol. I've obviously touched a nerve here.
baby 5y ago
I don’t understand though, most if not all modern blockchain technologies are pretty green.
- floatboth 5y ago
  Who cares? The shitcoin economy can only be viewed as a whole. Your new "green" shitcoin will be exchanged with Bitcoin and other dominant coins that use PoW mining. Your shitcoin's value will be based on that.
  - baby 5y ago
    Who cares about protobuf if you have json amirite
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mtchtrnr 5y ago
I agree that it's bad for the planet. Can we make a list of all the sectors that are consuming energy and determine which are providing the most benefit? Then we can focus on making reductions in the most harmful and the least important energy consumers. Crypto is a big energy consumer, but I would prefer not to attack it just because it's new. It can provide some awesome things for humanity. I'd rather live in a world with crypto than one with massive military spending, for example.
macinjosh 5y ago
I agree the petrodollar is much better for the environment.

encryptluks2 5y ago

This is an assumption that all blockchains are a PoW, which isn't accurate.

basilgohar 5y ago
With all due respect, that is similar to someone saying we need to get off of fossil fuels for the benefit of the environment, and complaining that that assumes all fossil fuels contribute equally to climate change. Technically right but distracting from the point that the most significant blockchain usage is PoW or some other methodology that massively wastes resources of some kind, such as Chia that wastes storage space for no good purpose.
- culi 5y ago
  Not to mention that storage space is also an environmental impact. I think when thinking about environmental impact we're often too focused on emissions during usage and not looking at the environmental impact of manufacturing and recycling the objects themselves. Solar panels, for example, look a lot less eco-friendly when you realize their lifespans are about 20 years and our recycling solution is to... not recycle them. Not to mention precious metals like lithium are getting harder and harder to mine, meaning more and more emissions are required to acquire those materials in the first place. It's estimated that around 46% of an EV battery's carbon footprint is in the factory itself before it's even travelled a single mile. Which is part of why total lifetime GHG emissions for EVs are still around 65% that of gasoline powered cars.[0] and only 5% of lithium-ion batteries are recycled in the US (compared to 99% of lead-iron batteries). Sorry I'm rambling. I think my point was that we need to think more about where the materials come from and what happens to them afterwards if we want a more complete picture of the environmental impacts of a technology [0] https://theicct.org/publications/global-LCA-passenger-cars-jul2021 https://theicct.org/publications/global-LCA-passenger-cars-j...
ajkjk 5y ago
Nobody who is complaining about this is making that assumption. PoW continues to exist, and they know that as well as you do, and it's really bad.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  Bitcoin sadly isn't going anywhere. And if it does it will take the whole thing with it for years. If PoS was winning why doesn't it control most of market cap?
  - Zamicol 5y ago
    PoS is winning on almost every metric. https://money-movers.info/ https://money-movers.info/ https://cryptofees.info/ https://cryptofees.info/
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  So they why don't they consider a PoS option like Solana? That is like me complaining about an entire race because one or two people did something negative to me that were of a specific race. It is stereotyping which wouldn't be appropriate in other scenarios.
floatboth 5y ago
It does not matter that some don't. Most do, especially the biggest one, so the shitcoin economy as a whole does.

colesantiago 5y ago

Cryptocurrencies isn't the only space to have a poor environmental footprint, Machine Learning as well has a horrible record and contributes to harming the environment.

hmrr 5y ago
Also rebuilding the same docker containers 500 times a day… We could do a whole lot better with our energy usage across the whole industry.
LurkingPenguin 5y ago
[flagged]
- Guest42 5y ago
  Personally, I get tired of the apples to oranges comparisons whereby bitcoins and blockchain have the same feature set as currency and banks. Also get tired of the aspirational rants of how it is going to fix supply chains and offer banking to the underserved communities. And yes, I understand banking, supply chains, and crypto enough to know that that will never happen.
  - beckman466 5y ago
    > Also get tired of the aspirational rants of how it is going to fix supply chains and offer banking to the underserved communities. And yes, I understand banking, supply chains, and crypto enough to know that that will never happen. agreed. have you heard of hREA [1] and http://valueflo.ws http://valueflo.ws, led by Bob and Lynn from http://mikorizal.org http://mikorizal.org, and others? it's sort of an open source SAP alternative designed as local-first networked software. "Radically distributed supply chain systems". it uses the REA accounting method [2] to implement LETS and mutual credit type economic networks for cooperatives / small business ecosystems / commons based peer production / any transitional/solidarity economies. Bonfire is also implementing the Valueflows vocabulary on ActivityPub [3]. [1] https://github.com/holo-rea/holo-rea https://github.com/holo-rea/holo-rea [2] http://www.jeffsutherland.org/oopsla97/haugen.html http://www.jeffsutherland.org/oopsla97/haugen.html [3] https://bonfirenetworks.org/ https://bonfirenetworks.org/

thesausageking 5y ago

The whole Bitcoin networks uses less energy than clothes dryers in the US. And about 1/5th of what video gaming uses. If Bitcoin has a "horrendous environmental impact" than there's no excuse to play video games or use a dryer. edit: downvotes? Check the math yourself: https://www.casebitcoin.com/critiques/bitcoin-wastes-energy https://www.casebitcoin.com/critiques/bitcoin-wastes-energy https://hbr.org/2021/05/how-much-energy-does-bitcoin-actually-consume https://hbr.org/2021/05/how-much-energy-does-bitcoin-actuall...

lukebutton 5y ago
Too true, wondering when this absurdly off target talking point is going to be discarded
jdub 5y ago
Dryers and video games are useful.
joosters 5y ago
I've no idea if their self-declared 'back of the envelope' calculations are realistic, but it doesn't really matter. The comparison is plain dumb because unlike Bitcoin, clothes driers actually do something useful with their energy.
- colecut 5y ago
  How can you send thousands of dollars across the globe faster with less fees?
  - dogecoinbase 5y ago
    Given blockchain transaction fees, pretty much any way up to and including just buying flights, taking cash and bribing everyone along the way.
    - colecut 5y ago
      I think you are referring to ethereum fees. Bitcoin is much better, and many others are even better. So, no, there isn't anything better than crypto for the purpose of efficiently transferring value across the globe.

skratlo 5y ago

Ever heard of surplus energy? Do you think miners would ever pay for non-surplus energy?

toolz 5y ago

There's really no excuse for this kind of strawman this late into the game. For one, Proof of work blockchains are migrating to first world countries which are moving to renewable/nuclear energy quickly, so even if proof of work was the only consensus mechanism in the blockchain space, this sentiment would be horribly outdated and uninformed. Secondly, the vast majority of the market cap is in crypto that isn't proof of work. So the first point doesn't even matter. Even bitcoin is moving towards a layer2 solution with the lightening network that means the settlement layer won't continue to put more pressure on needing more and more wasted energy.

dnautics 5y ago
the way I see it, complaining about the environmental impact of blockchain is a bit like complaining that a early adopter's toyota prius' car has more of an environmental impact. Sure, that's strictly speaking true, but you are helping make a point - at expense to you - building investment in infrastructure that someday result in a vehicle that IS less of an impact. In the ideal case (which I am not necessarily optimistic will happen) we have a global currency that respects that there are finite resources on the planet, and doesn't require a belligerent military that goes around littering depleted uranium around the world to back its value. (fwiw, I'm working towards getting solar on my house and mining with my excess electricity)
jimbob45 5y ago
>Proof of work blockchains are migrating to first world countries The whole point of blockchains is that everyone has a copy. I don't understand why you think they're migrating unless you don't want third-world countries using blockchains.
- toolz 5y ago
  It doesn't matter what you or I want - I'm stating facts. and the fact is that technology is solving the dirty energy problem and miners are moving to cheap energy solutions because clean energy is cheaper.
  - 5y ago

Karrot_Kream 5y ago

Look can we stop this idiotic greenwashing? I get it, you don't like crypto. But stop trying to act like it's an environmental imperative to stop using crypto. When mining crypto becomes an environmental imperative, that's when we'd have both removed emissions from our automobile usage _and_ switched to hydrogen based factory processes and _then some_. We're not even close to those goals. Stop it. Hijack some other cause for your anti-crypto views. You don't get to make people feel good about emissions by writing anti crypto blog posts; you do it by actually advocating for lower emissions in activities that are in regular use that are _actually polluting_. Someone is going to say something about incremental emissions reduction and to that I say, be my guest. The world is full of people selling magical products and ideas that claim to be green. The truth is, decreasing emissions is hard. Stop distracting people from the hard work needed to actually decrease emissions. If you want to help emissions out, go advocate for more buses and fewer automobiles in your community. Advocate for hydrogen subsidies for factories. Advocate for raising the gas tax. Advocate for tax rebates on weatherproofing houses. Advocate for heat pump installation. PoW cryptocurrencies are table stakes. EDIT: The score on my post is fluctuating wildly and I'm flagged now lol. I've obviously touched a nerve here.

baby 5y ago

I don’t understand though, most if not all modern blockchain technologies are pretty green.

floatboth 5y ago
Who cares? The shitcoin economy can only be viewed as a whole. Your new "green" shitcoin will be exchanged with Bitcoin and other dominant coins that use PoW mining. Your shitcoin's value will be based on that.
- baby 5y ago
  Who cares about protobuf if you have json amirite

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

mtchtrnr 5y ago

I agree that it's bad for the planet. Can we make a list of all the sectors that are consuming energy and determine which are providing the most benefit? Then we can focus on making reductions in the most harmful and the least important energy consumers. Crypto is a big energy consumer, but I would prefer not to attack it just because it's new. It can provide some awesome things for humanity. I'd rather live in a world with crypto than one with massive military spending, for example.

macinjosh 5y ago

I agree the petrodollar is much better for the environment.